[acannell]

1990 dodge daytona ES 2.5 turbo

5 speed manual

91 octane pump gas

dynoed it today @ dynomite in san diego in miramar ($45 for 4 pulls!!! phone number on dyno sheet)

it was a dynojet dyno with the "brake" set to 5% (whatever that means)

boost set to 17psi

BLOCK AND HEAD

2.5 turbo common block
cylinders bored out for 0.030" oversize pistons
cast mahle 0.030" oversize pistons
stock 2.5 turbo rods
stock 2.5 turbo crankshaft
balance shafts removed
stock fast-burn turbo cylinder head
block and head have less than 4k miles on them since they were both rebuilt
mopar 2006 head gasket
both head and block have been resurfaced, and since cylinders are slightly oversize, my compression ratio is probably a bit higher than stock

TURBO

turbonetics hybrid T3/T4 turbo
.63 exhaust housing
s60 style compressor housing
super 46 trim compressor wheel
stage 1 exhaust turbine
2.5" garrett swingvalve

EXHAUST

stock exhaust manifold
stock 2.5" downpipe
autozone/kragen off-the-shelf 2.5" catalytic converter (replacement, probably terrible flow)
turbos unleashed 3" cat-back
magnaflow 3" straight through muffler

INTAKE

big front mount intercooler in front of radiator (see pic)
3.5" x 19" x 14" core, bar and plate, internal fins, 2.5" inlet and outlet
2.5" intercooler and air filter tubing
cone air filter located in front of battery location
Greddy Type RS blow off valve on hot intercooler pipe

FUEL

stock fuel pump
stock fuel lines
stock fuel filter

+40 injectors
AFPR located in stock location
fuel pressure set to 29 psi (AFPR vacuum line unplugged)

NOTE: this may be equivalent flow rate to stock injectors. the +40 injectors are installed just to be ready for the stage 5 computer which i dont have yet. this stage 3 computer does not require +40 injectors.

IGNITION
autolite 63 spark plugs (just for the heck of it)
otherwise completely stock
timing set to 10 deg BTDC (no improvement seen on dyno versus 12 BTDC)

ENGINE MANAGEMENT
stage 3 90/91 computer from fwdperformance
grainger valve for boost control

NOTES:

EGT's were climbing into the 1500's during the dyno pull and would probably have reached or did reach over 1600F. hard to say since my EGT gauge response rate is pretty slow.

i cracked a piston last week with this setup. its unclear if it was from the high boost or if a randomly failing HEP (leading to backfires and cutting out at high boost) had anything to do with it. so beware.

i assumed this stage 3 computer still had the overboost cutoff at 14.7 psi, and that my boost gauge was inaccurate (flicking it causes the needle to jump around, its a crappy 9$ autozone one). after installing a brand new autometer boost gauge today, and seeing that my boost really WAS 17 psi, i now realize this computer must have had its overboost cut off removed, which means i am running higher boost than the computer can see, which is probably not a good idea.

there are NUMEROUS additonal modifications to this car, like relocating the battery, moving hoses out of the way, etc... which are not listed, but were required in order to make all this fit/work

air conditioner works great. removed cruise control servo to make way for intercooler tubing and smaller battery.

SO! The remainder of my plan for this car is:

ported exhaust manifold
3" swingvalve
3" downpipe
eliminate the cat
stage 5 fwdperformance computer (and bigger fuel pump if needed)

oh yeah and set boost to 25psi

how much power do you think i will make then?

 

[tryingbe]

Nice.

 

[Reaper1]

Nice power curve for what you have done! :thumb:

 

[speeduphoria]

Nice results!:thumb:

What octane gas?pump?
Is it a 5spd?

I take it you havent got knock from the scanner since you put it back together?

 

[acannell]

its 91 octane pump gas

its a 5 spd manual

the scanner still says its knocking. spark plugs look fine immediately after the dyno runs. no audible knocking. at this point im going to take a risk and assume that there is no significant knock and the ECU is too senstiive and/or the engine is too loud. yeah a big risk but hey these cast pistons arent going to last that long anyway. time to go to the junkyard, get a block, and build a forged short block to have sitting there for when this engine eats it.

i mean what else can i really do? lets say its really knocking? then what? AFR is good, i have a GIANT intercooler, injectors are brand new, injector wiring harness connectors have been replaced with soldered joints as have the HEP connectors, timing is basically stock, i have an upgraded computer, i mean....what am i supposed to do just leave it at 5psi? if i didnt have this OTC 2000 scanner I wouldn't even think it was knocking in the first place because there is no evidence of it.

am i biased towards the ECU being too sensitive? yeah probably. i just dont like the fact that the spark plugs look okay and i dont hear any knock, and i've got a big intercooler and verify the AFR with a wideband. what am i doing wrong? the only thing i can think of is that the compression ratio has been increased by surfacing the head and block and using oversized pistons.

im thinking the cracked piston was from the HEP failing during 17 psi boost SEVERAL TIMES, which involved loud backfirings and random engine cutouts under boost....that would be consistent with the plugs never showing salt and pepper and no audible knock.

 

[speeduphoria]

If I could link to TM I would show you a graph of the Knock sensor output. The guys that do cals change the min "knock"value in the cal to a little higher. So I'm not sure if FWDperformance did this on your cal or not?

You can try putting teflon tape on the knock sensor and seeing if that helps?

 

[acannell]

i guess i could do that....

what really BUGS me is that i cant get a HANDLE on this. I cant _VERIFY_, without a DOUBT that there IS detonation or there ISN'T detonation, and that is just lame in my opinion.

thats why i tried the headphone thing, because i figured detonation at high boost should be REALLY easy to hear when you are listening INTO the engine...but what i heard on the headphones sounded very normal to me..so now i kinda doubt the headphones...basically EVERYTHING is in doubt...its just annoying ya know?

i guess the real test is driving this engine really hard at 17 psi for 1000 miles

FWIW, (not much) here is waveform of my knock sensor output (the same sound file I posted in that other thread), the beginning is at idle, then i floor it through first and second. boost is set to 5 psi. no audible knock in the sound file, at least that i could notice.

i dont know what the stage 3 computer is set up for as far as knock, for all i know its stock. once i do the remaining mods i think im going to have to drive the car to texas and let cindy dyno tune it and make me a custom cal.

 

[speeduphoria]

I hear ya, I would try the tape, if its still funny then I guess you could hook up the head phones and turn the boost down to 5psi. Then put 87 octane gas in it and keep adding base timing to see if its audible, not that its a great idea:bang head. But maybe you could hear/see something from the recorded sound?

 

[kuzman83]

pardon my ignorance but what does a detonation knock sound like. is it like a deep knocking or a higher pitched ticking sound. my car makes a ticking sound from around the fuel injector area but i think its just noisy injectors.

 

[acannell]

well LOUD knocking sounds like a spray paint can when you shake it. but knocking can still occur and be too quiet to hear above engine noise with your ears.

i'm pretty sure knocking (detonation) doesnt occur at idle so if thats when you hear your noise its probably something else

 

[speeduphoria]

pardon my ignorance but what does a detonation knock sound like

people compare it to gravel hitting the underside of your car or rice falling on tin foil. As acannell said you would be listening at WOT normally.

 

[Turbo_zo]

This is awesome.....I have almost the same set up and i've been so curious on how much power I am gonna put down. This gives me an idea of what to expect, all I gotta do is just get injectors, stage 5 cal, and off to the dyno I go. I can't wait now!!!!!!

 

[GLHNSLHT2]

why'd you shut it off at 5500? Nice output for what's done.

 

[acannell]

i dunno the guy asked me what he should run it too and i didnt want to deal with hitting redline and bouncing off the limiter. plus i dont spend much time above 5500 rpm anyways you think i should run it higher next time?

 

[acannell]

whats really crazy to me is that these numbers are AT THE WHEELS. so the engine is making more like 280hp! thats almost twice the stock output! i just cant believe this setup makes that much power with a crappy catalytic converter installed, a 2.5" downpipe, and no ported exhaust manifold!

 

[crazymadbastard]

so you are gonna get close to 300whp once you uncork that bad boy.

 

[acannell]

that would be fantastic! i want more like 350hp though. what would it take beyond what i already said i was going to do? i'm thinking:

ported head with oversize valves
48mm throttle body
30 psi
update to the turbo (stage 2 turbine wheel, bigger compressor housing?)

i want whatever i do to work with 91 octane pump gas and no chemical intercooling

 

[turbokid]

I have a set up to follow for sure now

 

[acannell]

there is one thing about my setup that is just unacceptable. the catalytic converter is literally the "ask the parts guy for a new one to pass smog" generic universal replacement. its not meant for hi performance and cost about $50. its TOTALLY an abomination at these power levels and boost levels and does NOT belong on this car anymore.

also, i should remind any newcomers using my setup as a reference that there is ALOT of additional work done to things in the engine bay to get all these new parts to fit and work well ESPECIALLY the giant intercooler, which took a lot of work to get mounted and run not 1, not 2, but **3** 2.5" intercooler pipes AND an air filter in the space between the engine and the headlights without hitting anything and with a minimum of bends AND locate the air filter in a cold air location.
in your garage like i did can be rather time consuming, especially the logistics of finding all the new parts and a local machine shop that will do what you want at a good price.

i bought this car last july so worst case it took 9 months to get it to this point. but i wasnt working on it non stop, at least 2 of those months was spent waiting for parts. it would be much faster repeating all this because i am MUCH more experienced with this particular car and its unique characteristics, getting parts for it quickly, and working on cars in general then i was 9 months ago. i replaced a cracked piston a week ago in 2 days without getting my heart rate up at all, when a few months ago i would be sobbing under the house.

my lifestyle since i have been w
plus rebuilding this engine orking on this car has included VAST amounts of free time, and since i have wanted to soup up a car like this for a very long time, a nearly UNLIMITED budget (within reason, lets just say I dont keep track of what i spend on this car). without a 5k budget for parts, tools, and machine work, and large amounts of free time, it would have been VERY difficult to do all this to this car in this amount of time when starting as a newbie to turbo dodges. given that this car only cost me $500, im still happy with how much i've spent on it. plus a fair amount of the money i've spent has gone into tools which i will always have. plus like i said i am FAR more skilled and confident with doing anything to this car than i was when i started, which is experience that will pay for itself on my next project by reducing the time and money required to do anything.

ALTHOUGH: repeating the install of this intercooler on another identical daytona, or for that matter, any of the work i've done on this car, would be rather trivial because now i know exactly what to do and no experimentation would be needed.

 

[turbokid]

ya. Those egts are a lil high with stock pistons.