Turbo Dodge Forums banner

1 - 20 of 37 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Ok this is my first post on here and I suppose it'll be a lengthy one to explain the issue up to now.

1989 Chrysler TC, 2.2L turbo. She had been sitting for about 2yrs after what I was told was her fuel pump kicking the bucket. I got her and upon looking at the fuel pump/tank went in all the way and ended up replacing the entire fuel system from the regular back as well as the entire brake system. Now I finally get to the point where I can start here and she won't start. I've swapped in a bunch of new parts in the process and I'm running out of ideas. She SUPPOSEDLY rand right before parking

Symptoms
  • She will fire consistently, almost on every crank, but will never actually run, just a pop, pop. so I know I've got fuel air and spark. I've pulled the plugs and know they're getting fuel
  • Fuel pressure is 40+psi at the manifold when cranking, goes down to 30ish when not. Fuel regulator and everything back to and including the pump are brand new.
  • check engine code only throws 23 which I know is valid as the connector to that sensor is broken and loose, but I don't imagine that would completely keep it from starting, just run like crap
New Parts include
- Tank, Fuel pump, fuel sender, Fuel tank vapor value, fuel filter, all new hard and soft lines front to back. fuel pressure regulator, all plugs, plug wires, coil, distributor rotor and cap. And every brake line, caliper and rotor on the car (which shouldn't matter here)

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. I've built a lot of classic cars but i've never messed with anything not carbureted so I'm out of my element here. I'm going to start replacing the old vacuum lines this weekend to eliminate leaks, but even with the worst leak I'd imagine it would still start just run like total junk
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
24,131 Posts
Welcome To TD!!!
Unfortunately you will need to start at square one to determine exactly where the problem lies, new parts do not always = good parts so each circuit needs to be checked to determine if it is functioning properly.
You will need to actually check these items, assuming they are OK will only create more problems.

1)Is spark present at all 4 cylinders?
Use an adjustable spark tester set to 25 KV or place a screwdriver in the end of the plug wire and hold 1/4" from a good ground.
IGNITION - Adjustable Spark Tester.jpg IGNITION- Checking For Spark 1.jpg

2)Are the plugs fouled?
a)If so, what type of fouling?

3)Is fuel pressure correct? (Need exact numbers)

4)Is Cam Timing Correct?

5)Is there excessive exhaust backpressure?
(Check 1-4 and if needed we will deal with #5)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Looks like I’m in the 3,4 or 5 area. I’ve got testers on each plug and know they are not fouled (neither old or new ones)

pressure is only about 42-45 which I know is 10psi lower than typical. Were there other regulators with lowerPSIs that I may have gotten? Or are all in that form fit function 55psi? Could I be loosing pressure via a hung up injector? If I was wouldn’t it still start?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
also for #4, if the engine hasn’t been apart could it even loose cam timing? Sorry I’m used to American V8s where for the most part once it’s set it’s set, unless you loose teeth or something.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
24,131 Posts
If fuel pressure is low you need to follow the diagnostics in the link I provided to determine where the loss of pressure is coming from.

Yes, the timing belt teeth can shear and the belt could jump being only one or two teeth off, 1 tooth off = 9 degrees.
 

·
Legendary Driver
Joined
·
10,889 Posts
NAJ has you started in the right directions. Fuel pressure is low. And yes I think it was SAAB or maybe volvo that had an identical FPR but it was set at 43psi instead of 55.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I actually did the fuel pressure troubleshooting procedure out of the 89 service manual I have. Originally I had 0 pressure after pumping so I directly me to replace the regulator which now holds pressure, just not enough. the next test it has it to put a tester around the fuel filter to see if it's clogged. But knowing that the filter lines and tank are all brand new I know it's not a clogged filter.

I'll have to investigate this regulator, if there is one that could be 43 this may be it.

another question. should this pressure be on the fuel rail indefinitely? i.e. I get pressure when pumping and after pumping I still have pressure but it bleeds down after so time. If my regulator, injectors and pressure gauge are solid shouldn't that stay at pressure theoretically forever, or at least a while. Again I'm questioning if my injectors are hung open letting pressure bleed.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
24,131 Posts
Fuel Pressure will not hold indefinitely, it will drop slowly over time, maybe a half hour or so, if pressure drops quickly/immediately then you have a problem.

How to identify where a pressure drop is coming from is covered in the link/thread I posted for you.

Where did you get that fuel pressure regulator?
What pump did you install in the car?
When you manually actuate the ASD and "deadhead" the fuel pump does pressure rise to 80 psi (minimum) immediately?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Regulator was from parts geek, listed to fit a TC with a 2.2L turbo, but I'm aware they could be messed up.

Pressure when activating the relay manually, while connected to the fuel rail is 40psi give or take 2
Pressure deadheaded doing the same is 100+ from the pump.

So it seems like everything up to the fuel rail is good. That only leave the regulator and injectors i guess.

Also, after i shut the pump off pressure drops down to ten within a second and the rest of the way off in less than 30 seconds. If we go with the assumption that my new regulator was good out of the box I guess that leaves injectors.....
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
24,131 Posts
From The Chrysler Parts Catalog;
1)All Body Styles Turbo EDG/EDR #4504325
EDG - Turbo I
EDR - Turbo II
2)Q Body EDR Part #4418208
EDR - Turbo II
ALL 2.2L/2.5L Turbo Engines Are 53-57 PSI Static Fuel Pressure


Shows Operating Pressure Of 55 PSI.

You can also get an OE from...(Used?)
The sellers user name on this site is Marty Mopar and has been on this site for years.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Status update. I got the new regulator in and it solved the pressure issue. When pumping it's a steady 53-55psi and when shut off it holds for as long as I watch it.

But the overall issue still remains with zero change in behavior......
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
304 Posts
Hi, Could we recap?
1)So your fuel pressure is good
2)Did you check cam timing?
3)Dizzy timing? Check wires/cap/plugs? Was spark test good?
4)any codes?
5)double check grounds? engine rail to firewall is an important one, for example
6)any BAD vacuum leaks? You can smoke test to be sure.
7)Is the exhaust have a strong smell of gas when you are attempting to start?
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
24,131 Posts
Cranks but will not start...
The "Readers Digest" version of Chryslers No Start Diagnostics.
Again...
If you "ASSUME" something is OK without properly testing you may move right past the problem.
1)Test NS1 - Testing For Ignition Spark and Power Feed To Coil
a)Check for spark by cranking the engine for 7 seconds, count one to two sparks as no spark.
IGNITION- Checking For Spark 1.jpg
I still recommend using an adjustable spark tester set to 25 KV.
IGNITION - Adjustable Spark Tester.jpg
b)If spark is present move to test NS2
2)Test NS2 - Checking For Fault Codes and Theft Alarm Status
a)Connect Scanner, read faults, clear faults, crank engine for 10 seconds, which faults returned?
Your only code was a code 23 without any other Map/TPS/CTS codes and no Injector Control Circuit codes, no Sync Pick Up codes and no Z1 Voltage Sense Codes.
If no faults are present and the car is not equipped with a Factory Theft Alarm move to test NS3.
3)Test NS3 - Checking Fuel Pressure, Throttle Position Sensor and Power Feed to Injectors.
a)Be sure throttle is at the closed position, read TPS voltage, is voltage above 1.50 volts?
If Yes,Replace TPS.
b)Check fuel pressure (KOEO), is pressure above 50 PSI but below 60 PSI?
If Yes, continue...
c)Disconnect the injector 6 way harness, check the connector for damage or pushed out pins (repair as needed).
Actuate the ASD Relay and check for voltage on the DG/BK wire in the 6 way connector.
Is voltage above 10 volts?
If Yes move to test NS4.
4)Test NS4- Checking For Fouled Plugs, Valve Gear and Ignition Timing.
a)Remove spark plugs and look at tips for wet fuel.
If OK, continue...
b)Connect a Timing Light, disconnect the CTS connector, crank engine and look at timing mark on bellhousing.
Is timing between 0 and 16 degrees?
If no, set to 10 degrees and retry to start engine.
If engine will not start, check Cam/Intermittent Shaft Timing/Alignment.

So there you have it.
You need to check the Ignition System, Fuel System, Fault Codes/Sensors Out Of Range/Faulty Controller Grounds, Power Feeds To Coil/Injectors, Cam/Ignition Timing and Theft Alarm Status (if equipped)
The only thing they do not have you check is Exhaust Backpressure.
Start at the TOP and perform each test.

Let me know if you need/want more info on a circuit/system you are testing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
@ Chromguy
For the recap
1)Fuel pressure is confirmed good at all locations on all accounts
2)I have not yet cam timing, however it will be next on my list. I am HOPING that being the motor hasn't been appart and I know for a fact that it ran when parked that the Cam timing is not off. As that would me more of an internal issue than I had hoped for. but i'll check next.
3)I didn't think you could time this Dizzys as they bolt in one fixed position. But yes I gapped all the plugs, plugs, wires, coil and cap are all new and I've confirmed spark on all 4 cylinders.
4)check engine code only throws 23 which I know is valid as the connector to that sensor is broken and loose, I've since secured it back on but I'd imagine the Code Won't reset until driven X amount of miles without fault. Should I reset this one manually?
5)I have checked the majority of the grounds but I will make it one of my next efforts to, remove, clean, and reinstall all visible ground.
6)I recently replaced 75% or more of the vacuum lines to rule this out as a lot were old and brittle. Not to say that there isn't still one. I will look up this smoke method, I've only ever used MAP Gas to find leaks but that requires the engine to be running.
7)yes the exhaust smells strong of gas, but I presumed that was due to the fact that the cylinders are loading up and only firing here and there and not running. Does this point to something else.

@NAJ
Thank you again, I don't mean to seem as though I'm not following your advice. I'm typically on the other side of this equation at work every day so I realize I just need to follow the instructions you've laid out and somewhere from A-Z i'll find my root cause. now that I've crossed another one off the list i will be digging into the verifying timing the next day I get a free evening to get my hands dirty.

I may try to take a video of how shes acting and share it on here. i've certainly never been this close to having a car running but not running.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
304 Posts
Re my Dizzy comment...this is a reference to setting the timing.
error 23 will cause Limp mode as per http://minimopar.net/fault/code23-MPI.html
so it is best to repair and reset by disconnecting the battery.
The BEST way to get up and running is to follow NAJ suggestions to a T. He has tons of experience with getting these car operational, he is using a procedure that has helped countless people.
If you suspect a vacuum issue, just connect a fresh line from the intake manifold to the map and cap other engine vacuum fittings such as those on the TB etc.
This is the minimum working configuration. I had a bad leak from a boosted session that busted a line a few years back. The car was very difficult to start and did not want to keep going. It was throwing black smoke out the pipe for my trip home. Our cars are very sensitive to vacuum leaks.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
24,131 Posts
Your #7 comment leads me back to a possible ignition problem and fouled plugs.
If the oil smells like fuel and there is any fouling on the plugs that will need to be addressed first then disconnect the fuel pump during the rest of the diagnostics.
If the oil is fuel diluted it will wash down the cylinder walls and the car will never start if there is any raw fuel on the plugs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
I don't have a spare set of hands today so I can't run the timing gun and crank at the same time. But I had a few minutes so I played around with some other stuff just to double check.

  • Pulled all plugs (which are new) and none of them are fouled or wet.
  • Hooked up the plug testers again and confirmed that all cylinders are firing. (I took a video if I can figure out how to post it.)
  • Changed the oil, because I have ran into the problem mentioned above when building other engines. Knowing how much I've tried to start it there was a good chance the oil was watered down with fuel. It actually wasn't that bad, I've had worse before with fresh engines.
I'll have to wait until i have help to run the timing gun, then I'll dig into those next steps for verifying the timing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #19

There's the video I just took. it shows are the plug testers firing and the engine trying to start to no avail.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,714 Posts
Crankshaft timing is most definitely adjustable from the distributor. Not sure where you heard otherwise. Don't get all worked up about cam timing possibly being off. They don't get much easier to set than a 8V 2.2/2.5 engine, although loads of people still manage to get it wrong (lol). One tooth off (equals 9 camshaft degrees and 18 crankshaft degrees), vehicle typically will still run but performance is lacking I've seen them run with two teeth off. Sounds like to me that crank timing is off. If you don't have an extra set of hands today to check timing with a light while turning engine over, you could try bumping engine over to TDC and pull cap to see where rotor is pointing. Should be at #1 cylinder around 10-11 o'clock position (see attachment). Is distributor clocked slightly clockwise from crank centerline? (see attachments) Double check mark is at zero in timing window, and cam pulley small hole is pointing up (visible) through timing cover window with grommet removed. Also note plastic rivets epoxied in distributor. This is a very common problem with our engines. Check to make sure yours are tight without shutter wheel being able to move. Might consider epoxying them like shown. I would also double check to make sure you have a good vacuum line going to MAP sensor (barometer) solenoid. These engines won't start easily without a good MAP sensor signal. IMG_9972.JPG IMG_9971.JPG
 
1 - 20 of 37 Posts
Top