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Just to clarify, as of right now we know that the Ignition System and Fuel System are OK.

1)CHECKING CAM TIMING

2)You can also check MAP/CTS/TPS calibration to rule those sensors/circuits out as a possibility.
a)CHECKING THE MAP SENSOR CIRCUIT (With a no start you can only verify the initial Baro Reading is correct)

b)CHECKING CTS CALIBRATION
With your DVOM set to volts backprobe the CTS connector and read the voltage, the voltage = a temp.
Backprobing the CTS.JPG CTS VOLTAGE CHART 2.jpg

c)CHECKING TPS CALIBRATION
TPS voltage needs to be below 1.00 volts with the throttle closed.
If voltage is above 2,50 volts with the key on or engine cranking the controller assumes the engine is flooded and goes into "clear flood" mode and will not pulse the injectors.
With your DVOM set to volts backprobe the Signal (OR/DB) and Signal Return (BK/LB) wires and read the voltage at closed throttle.

3)Do you own Noid Lights?
Curious as to whether the injectors are being pulsed.
you can rent a set of Noid Lights at AZ.

4)Have you verified all controller grounds have the proper continuity to ground? (less than 5 ohms)
Have you verified that the Main Controller Ground is present and has a good/secure connection on a clean surface?
Engine Compartment Front-2011.jpg

ELECTRICAL- Main Controller Ground 84-89.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #22
Ok, I'm going to do these troubleshooting exercises one by one, I was checking the timing and either it's wildly off or I'm doing this wrong. I took photos along the way to verify I'm doing this correctly.

- I used spare vacuum line I had laying around to measure around the upper belt cover. it measured out to 11", I marked the 5.5" mark at the top of the cover which was about the 12:30ish position in reference to the inspection hole. (see Photo. I used a yellow paint pen to mark my measurements.
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Spun motor over to TDC with the dizzy pointing to cylinder 1 spark position at roughly 10-11 o'clock. (see photo)
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Cam timing mark appears to be wildly off from the mark i made or inspection hole (again see photo) about 6 or more teeth best I figure.
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I ran this exercise of spinning the motor over 4 times to ensure I wasn't doing something odd. the timing Mark (unless that slot isn't the timing mark) ended up in that exact same position every time.

I tried to double check it on the crank pulley/flywheel but for the life I me I don't see any marks anywhere down there for timing, be it on the pulley or a mark/indicator to line up to. i couldn't find a google image of it either but I presume I'm looking for a tab similar to an old school V8 that shows 0 and other increments to time to.

Other info. Belt was riding in the center of the pulley, not really off to one side or the other indicating loose or tight and belt tension seemed reasonable to me. I could twist it a few degrees but nothing wild
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Also as asked before my dizzy was clocked ever so slightly to one side a few degrees.

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Synopsis....either i'm doing something wrong or this thing is drastically out of time. Also noteworthy, The belt cover only had the front nut securing it on leading me to believe i'm not the first one in here in this car's life.
 

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Looks like your timing belt is off a couple/few teeth. There is no visible timing marks on the pulleys or lower shield to see the actual marks, you would need to take off the pulleys, belts, and lower plastic cover to get a visual on them. Hold on though, another way to verify you are at TDC is to bump engine over to align mark on torque converter or flywheel and the zero in the timing window on the transaxle. You may need to remove a foam block to see the window (drivers side of engine). It looks like you are close to TDC, but maybe just a bit shy of that. Getting the mark on zero, puts you at TDC for the #1 piston. Checking the aux. shaft pulley at approx. 11 O'clock is a visual check with where #1 is in relationship to the #1 terminal ON THE CAP. Again, this looks like your close, but need to continue rotating engine a bit more clockwise. This will also bring the cam position closer to where it is supposed to be.
The next part is where lots of people make their mistake. Note that the engine is canted rearward like 12-15°.Many people don't take this into account when aligning the cam pulley up. The cam pulley has two small arrows in the center of the pulley next to the center hole in the pulley. These are supposed to line up withe the centerline of the cam cap (see attachment last photo). So you would be looking through two of the small holes (located approx 3 and 9 o'clock position). That is very hard to visualize because of the fender line. Many people use a mirror to better see that these marks line up. Other people actually get their camera in there to take a picture of that. Another quick way to check this is to align the small hole with the ribs on the valve cover. This is not the correct way to set timing marks, but rather a quick way to check things while you sitting on the side of the road wondering why your car quit running (lol). So the cam pulley when it is properly aligned, the hole should line up between the 2nd and third rib (from the front of cover) on the valve cover (see attachment pics).
If the marks don't align up, you should take the pulleys, belts, and lower timing belt cover off and set the marks up properly per FSM. Note there is an access door in the lower cover to expose the tensioner, but that is probably left for people very familiar with these engines.
Please report back. We are here to help you.
IMG_9974.JPG IMG_9975.JPG IMG_9977.JPG IMG_9978.JPG
 

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BTW, I forgot to mention that you can turn the engine over by putting a 15mm socket on the crank bolt. Go slow as you will be fighting compression in cylinders. Don't put it on aux. shaft or cam pulley bolt(s). Want to go faster? Pull the plugs out of engine and it will spin very easily with wrench or by starter. Attachment below shows location of timing window, though this is a manual transmission. Location is about the same. Zero is mark on far left or towards front of vehicle.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
Thanks, It'll be next week before I get back to this but I'll report back. Being that all belts are ? old I may just replace them all and do this from scratch so I know it's right. Nothing aggravates me more than spending countless hours working on an engine only to have a belt snap in the first 100 miles because i didn't spend the $20 to change it when I had it apart.

And yes I had planned on pulling all plugs and turning her with a breaker bar when I was ready to get precise. I started to do it tonight but could barely get my hand down there to feel the nut let alone guess what size it was blindly. now that I know it's a 15mm I'm good to go.

Thanks again for all the help everyone.
 

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According to your pics you are off a couple of teeth.
The only thing I did not see is when you brought #1 cylinder to TDC whether you placed the timing mark on the bellhousing at "0" which will be true TDC.
You may want to verify that and then see where your cam sprocket and distributor rotor are pointing.

IMAGE-Timing Marks 2.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #27 (Edited)
ok I'm lost.....I see that window, but what am I lining up with that 0? those dang marks are way under the air box and barely visible. I cleaned them up but I can't see what mark is moving that I need to align. Do I need to look through that probe hole?
 

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Timing window will have 0-16 cast into tranny case. Like i said in previous post, 0 is facing forward towards front of car (like picture shows). Inside the rectangular slot, the torque converter will have two marks, one for BTC and one for TDC. Align the TDC and the zero mark. That will be true TDC on the compression stroke for cylinder #1. If your not seeing the mark yet, continue to turn it clockwise. The TDC mark will appear without too much more rotation of crankshaft.
After that, check timing marks on camshaft pulley, and check where rotor is positioned. I'm betting the camshaft pulley is off a tooth or two/three.
Todd
 

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Timing window will have 0-16 cast into tranny case. Like i said in previous post, 0 is facing forward towards front of car (like picture shows). Inside the rectangular slot, the torque converter will have two marks, one for BTC and one for TDC. Align the TDC and the zero mark. That will be true TDC on the compression stroke for cylinder #1. If your not seeing the mark yet, continue to turn it clockwise. The TDC mark will appear without too much more rotation of crankshaft.
After that, check timing marks on camshaft pulley, and check where rotor is positioned. I'm betting the camshaft pulley is off a tooth or two/three.
Todd
BTW, if the tranny has been out of the car before, it is possible that during previous replacement, the mechanic didn't attach the torque converter to the flexplate in the proper position. One quick way to check is take #1 plug out and check to see if piston is at TDC. That should also verify that the engine is at TDC.
 

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You are going to have to remove the airbox to get a good look at the timing window.
Also, #1 piston needs to be at TDC on a compression stroke or you will 180 degrees off.
Here is a pic I drew some time ago, maybe it is clearer than the factory pic.
IMAGE-Timing Marks 1.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Thank you very much guys. Ya I'm going to have to get the air box off to see it. I assumed it would be visible with out removal for maintenance purposes but I can tell that's not the case.

Next saga, started to work on getting ready to set the time on the belt side. Alternator belt damn near crumbled to pieces, the bolt for loosing the belt was rusted solid, had to cut it off, I'll need to get a new one tomorrow. Bolt for adjusting power steering pump was also rusted solid. Bolts that hold the lower timing cover on snapped off when i tried to loosen them. Tried loosing the crank pulley bolts so I could get it off to get the lower cover off and all it's E10 bolts stripped...... This project just got extended for an unknown amount of time.....

I'm probably going to have to mess up the lower cover to get it out over the crank pulleys, then loosen the timing belt and take the gear and pulleys out as an assembly to drill out the bolts on the bench....not to mention the cover bolts that i need to remove somehow....what a mess.....
 

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Ah the joys of working on an old car. 40+ years ago I broke bolts like crazy. Now I use ATF on parts if I have a few days or deep creep like product every few hours if I am in a hurry.
 

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When the time comes to remove the tork head bolts in the crank sprocket you may want to post a picture of it a see if you can just replace it with a used piece rather than drill all those bolts out of sprocket. You will need a puller to get the crank sprocket off the crank. It is pressed on. Next time, a little heat to soften or melt the thread locker and an impact will remove them without any effort. I would also plan on replacing tork head bolts with regular hex bolts or allen bolts.
You could have a couple different styles of crank sprockets. The 89 TC used many earlier 88 parts on the car, depending on when it was made. About half of the 16V engines used the early (pre 1989) block, while the other half used the 89+ common block. Not sure what the breakdown on 8v engines were. FYI- 1988 to 1989 saw many changes with the 2.2/2.5 engine. 1988 was sort of a transition year, and used many one year only parts. Posting a picture of sprocket after removing, and I'll be able to tell you what block you have in your TC.

If you don't have a FSM for the TC's I would suggest you purchase one on-line.
 

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Thank you very much guys. Ya I'm going to have to get the air box off to see it. I assumed it would be visible with out removal for maintenance purposes but I can tell that's not the case.

Next saga, started to work on getting ready to set the time on the belt side. Alternator belt damn near crumbled to pieces, the bolt for loosing the belt was rusted solid, had to cut it off, I'll need to get a new one tomorrow. Bolt for adjusting power steering pump was also rusted solid. Bolts that hold the lower timing cover on snapped off when i tried to loosen them. Tried loosing the crank pulley bolts so I could get it off to get the lower cover off and all it's E10 bolts stripped...... This project just got extended for an unknown amount of time.....

I'm probably going to have to mess up the lower cover to get it out over the crank pulleys, then loosen the timing belt and take the gear and pulleys out as an assembly to drill out the bolts on the bench....not to mention the cover bolts that i need to remove somehow....what a mess.....
893whatthe.gif

Before breaking/destroying things post pics of what you are attempting to do/remove and we may be able to offer help, we have all been where you are at one time or another. 893crossfingers-thumb.gif.8a2200956babdafa346ff05ea57884a7.gif
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Well...after wasting 3 more days of my life on this car I am still no further along. Probably even further behind...Got the new timing belt set and installed and the car is acting EXACTLY the same . Double checked it twice and took a bunch of photos but I won't even bother to share them as there was no change in symptoms. Unfortunately I have no more time in the near future to work on this car. I've got about 4 other vehicle projects going right now and I can't continue to devote all my time to this one....shes going to get rolled outside until further notice. If (and it's a big if) she doesn't get sold or scrapped in the meantime I will continue to do the other troubleshooting tasks on the provided lists above when I get available time. I hate when I find forum threads with unsolved mysteries so I will continue to post if and when more developments arise in the future... Thanks again. In the meantime I will be hunting for a replacement lower timing cover as mine is completely destroyed. I'll post a separate thread on this forum at some point to put out feelers.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Oh and to answer some of the other questions above, I did get all but one of the torque head bolts off the crank without drilling, thank god, but I got standard standard hex heads to replace them. Also I do have a FSM that has aided me through this process. But typically I find these forms to be more to the point and down to earth with a lot of these mystery issues.
I've got two Harley's that need put together, hopefully once their done I can return to this project....
 

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Just a suggestion but when you are ready to get back to this car I would suggest you invest in a scanner, will make life much easier in the future.
OTC Monitor 2000 or 4000E, Chrysler DRB2, Snap-On MT2500.

Have fun with the Harley's.
 

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Discussion Starter #40
yes, I sure do love my OBD2 scanners, but sadly I don't have that older style. Looks like the OTC Monitor 2000 may be the most cost effective one (considering it's a tool I'd rarely use after this) I'll do some more research and see what one I can find. I don't know what the differences would be between manufactures, seems like there were more than a few adapters.
 
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