Turbo Dodge Forums banner

41 - 60 of 89 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #42
Small Status update, I don't have noid lights but I do have a fluke. Hooked it up to each injector and they all measured between 1.6 and 2 Hz when cranking so it looks like injectors are pulsing.

I will be checking MAP TPS and CTS next when I get a chance. You only need Fuel Air and Spark...looks like I have Spark and fuel....
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
24,675 Posts
You also need compression and all of the above (Spark/Air/Fuel) need to be in the right amounts at the right time.

Just to verify where we are...
1)Ignition and Fuel Systems are OK.
2)Cam and Ignition Timing are Corrected???
a)With #1 at TDC on a compression stroke, the timing mark on the flywheel is aligned with 0 on the timing marker plate on the bellhousing...
b)The slot in the Cam Sprocket is at 12 o'clock center with the cylinder head?
IMG_2562.jpg

Upper Timing Cover.JPG
c)The distributor rotor is aligned with #1 cylinder on the distributor cap?
IMG_2567.jpg

IMAGE- Distributor.jpg

4)You are now checking Sensor Calibration, MAP/TPS/CTS?
5)Have we discussed Exhaust Backpressure issues?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #44
Right, I have a compression tester so that is also next on the short list of things to test

1. Ignition and fuel system are confirmed ok (short of pulling the injectors)
2.cam timing belt and tensioner are new and confirmed in time, see photos below. I attempted to marked the gears with a paint pen afterwards so it would should up better on the photos. As far as I believe from everything posted in this thread earlier, as well as the other threads on this form that were shared for how to set timing, she is now ok. I didn't get a photo of the bell housing but I can confirm that it was lined up with the 0 mark (man that is a bad spot to view a timing mark) Someone please let me know if these photos speak otherwise.
3. I will be checking sensors next
5. We mentioned but did not discuss back pressure.



269580
269581
269582
269585
269584
 

Attachments

·
Administrator
Joined
·
24,675 Posts
I seriously doubt you have a compression issue, however...
Your Cam Timing appears to be about 1 tooth off.
1576776014165.jpg
Upper Timing Cover.JPG
Exactly where Cam timing should be and where it actually is by pics can be deceiving and at least for me getting everything aligned and belt tension properly set without having to keep resetting/rotate the engine 2 revolutions, reset again and so on can be a PITA.
I actually got tired of fighting with the 1/2 - 1 tooth off issue and having the crank and intermediate shaft aligned so I purchased an Adjustable Cam Sprocket.
Engine Compartment Right Side-2014.JPG
Numerous time since I have been a member of this site there have been threads opened about no starts/poor performance and when asked if Cam timing was correct the OP stated Yes and stated he has checked and rechecked numerous times.
As it turns out the Cam Timing was off.

Here is Chryslers Diagnostic Strategy for Driveabilty With No Fault Codes or Codes 51/52.
It will give you an easy checklist for what needs to be checked and what you have checked.
If you need any additional info on running these tests let us know.
(5)Test NF1 Code 51-52.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,863 Posts
I concur with what NAJ is saying, in your last group of photos looks like your 1 tooth retarded on cam timing (needs to be more clockwise). It could be just the way you were holding the camera, but I kind of doubt it. The crank timing and aux. shaft timing look perfect. Look again at the pictures I posted in post #23 on page two, and see if that is what your seeing. Do you see how my photos show dot is more vertical than yours?
I remember listening to your video back a couple weeks ago. It definitely was firing. Another thing you might consider is whether ASD relay is continuing to stay on after it fires. It almost seems like it could have been shutting off fuel pump and coil power sensing the distributor wasn't sensing engine rotating. Like when your first put car into run position, the fuel pump energizes and then turns off after a couple seconds. ASD shuts down power to this circuit because it isn't sensing engine rotation. To rule this out, you can always run a jumper wire from positive battery post to + side of coil. This will energize that circuit until it is unplugged. I do that once or so a year to all my Chryslers when they are being put to bed for the winter. It engages fuel pump and I pump fuel (almost all pump fuel these days has ethanol) out of vehicle, and I fill with non-oxygenated premium fuel (no ethanol). I do this because non-oxy. fuel is much more stable for far longer periods of time. It won't hurt anything on the car jumping it this way. Been doing it almost as long as my car is old. About 35 years. Also do the same thing at dragstrip when done running for the day. Pump out expensive race fuel, and put pump fuel back in for the 120 mile one way trip (for me) back home.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #47
Thanks guys. I will adjust a tooth or two to be closer to the 12oclock position and update. Side note: I never thought of this as a symptom as I'm used to mechanical fuel pumps, but, when I initially turn to the run position the fuel pump does not kick on. It isn't until I'm cranking (or using the jumper to fake it out) that the fuel pump runs. could that be a symptom of some primal power signal I'm missing? I double checked this just now to verify, no fuel pump/pressure until i start to crank.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,863 Posts
Thanks guys. I will adjust a tooth or two to be closer to the 12oclock position and update. Side note: I never thought of this as a symptom as I'm used to mechanical fuel pumps, but, when I initially turn to the run position the fuel pump does not kick on. It isn't until I'm cranking (or using the jumper to fake it out) that the fuel pump runs. could that be a symptom of some primal power signal I'm missing? I double checked this just now to verify, no fuel pump/pressure until i start to crank.
Well that is clearly not correct. The fuel pump is supposed to energize for a second or two in run position before you put into start position and then shut off. This could very well be your issue. I would correct cam pulley timing and jump ASD relay and see if car runs and stays running. I'm betting it will. Good luck!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #49
Well based on those last few comments I tried a few things.
A. Adjusted the timing again a tooth clockwise to line up with the valve cover fin. No dice.
B. Jumpered the fuel pump to be constantly on and tried to start. Nothing, same situation if not worse.
I’ll check those previously mentioned sensors this afternoon
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #50
tested the MAPS, it has the 5v supply to it and reads 1.61v with the ignition on. Also tested the CTS and it was readying 3.3V, which I realize is high, but not overtemp high. But I can't imagine that would be causing my not starting issue. I also tried holding the throttle butterfly open and trying to start it to ensure it was getting air, no dice. I'm really past the point of loosing my patience with this car....
269602
269603
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #51
Did a compression test on all cylinders and they all passed. The only leaking was around the threads when i didn't screw the adapter in tight.
269606
269607
269609
269608
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,863 Posts
Did a compression test on all cylinders and they all passed. The only leaking was around the threads when i didn't screw the adapter in tight.
View attachment 269606 View attachment 269607 View attachment 269609 View attachment 269608
Looks like leakdown test, not compression test. That's better yet. I typically test mine at close to 100 PSI since cranking pressure will be around 120-145 PSI.
Without looking back at your whole thread, have you tried a different HEP (Hall Effect sensor) yet? They are prone to failure (and can result in no-start condition). I'm starting to hear of engine ECU's failing on a regular basis. In your case you have a SMEC (single module engine controller). Other people including myself have had logic module failures (earlier cars) nothing wrong the night before, then come out to start vehicle the next day and no start.
Have you ever heard this car run, or did you purchase it this way.
Back in the day, the hot ticket for increased performance on the 89 TC autos was to install a Mopar Performance 89 Shelby Z TII SMEC in place of the factory TC SMEC. Even the factory 89 Shelby Z manual transmission SMEC was a performance gain of about 15 HP. Chrysler detuned this SMEC a little bit because they feared the regular 2.2 intercooled manual transmission SMEC would hurt the transmission. It was detuned some to kill some torque. So of course the enthusiasts quickly found out a performance gain was just a mere SMEC change away.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
24,675 Posts
A couple of things...
1)A Map Sensor voltage reading of 1.61 volts W/KOEO is = to about 8" HG, are you in the mountains?
At Sea Level you should be reading about 2.30 - 2.40 volts.
Was the voltage measured by backprobing the Signal (DG/RD) and the Signal Return(BK/LB)?

2)Holding the throttle open while cranking tells the controller the engine is flooded so it will not start.
a)Did you check TPS Closed Throttle Voltage to be sure it is under 1.0 volt?

As far as losing your patience, I feel you, wish I had the car in front of me to help.
My suggestion...
Take a deep breath, relax and enjoy the upcoming holidays and when you feel up to it follow the Chrysler Flow Chart I posted,
Just an FYI, when Chrysler has you check for spark they want the engine cranked for 7-10 seconds, there should be strong spark, count 1-2 sparks as No Spark.
That is why I always suggest using an Adjustable Spark Tester set to 25 KV.

(5)Test NF1 Code 51-52.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #54
4L - I have not tried a new HEP sensor yet, and no I have never heard it run. It was given to me by a cousin in exchange for Work on a Harley, It had last run about a year before I got a hold of it. Maybe a little less.

NAJ - I am at in the foothills of the Appalachian mountains, current elevation is about 1,500ft. the voltage was measured by back probing the two mentioned signal wires.
- I can't recall if I checked TPS voltage but if I didn't post a photo maybe I didn't, I will.

After a long Christmas day discussion with an old friend who's been an auto mechanic twice as long as I've been alive, and who had worked on many of these, he was still under the impression that it must be timing. I went through the exercise of timing it again. After cranking it as much as I have it looked again to be a tooth off (based on lining it up with that valve fin). Set it and tried rotating the dizzy here and there while cranking like I would with any V8, no dice. I could tell a difference in how much it seemed to want to start depending on how far to one side I would adjust it, but nothing got it any closer than I have been thus far. It still keeps firing, just wont' actually run.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
24,675 Posts
First, I do not know how to calculate the exact reading you should have at the Map Sensor with the KOEO for 1500' above sea level but it seems like 1.61 volts is low which would create a "lean" fuel mixture.
Again, I would suggest you follow Chryslers diagnostic Flow Chart, since this is a no start you need to follow tests NF-2A. NF-3A, NF-4A, NF-5A, NF-9A, NF-13A.

You stated...
"and no I have never heard it run. It was given to me by a cousin in exchange for Work on a Harley, It had last run about a year before I got a hold of it. Maybe a little less."

If this is true you cannot assume anything on this car is correct.
What is the part # on the SMEC?
What is the part # on the Map Sensor?

I can only suggest that if you do not own the Service Manuals for this car (Engine/Chassis/Body, Electrical/Fuel/Emissions, Wiring Diagrams, Powertrain Diagnostics 2.2L/2.5L Turbo) that you get a one year subscription for the vehicle from...
This will have all of the info that was published by Chrysler for your vehicle.

I also saw this on eBay, do not know if it contains Powertrain Diagnostics.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #56
I do have the full original service manual. It has aided me a lot, but I figured a lot of time people on these forms cut through the BS and know the common problems that frequently cause these issues.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
24,675 Posts
Sometimes they do but in this case...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #58
Alright friends, My main Harley project hit a wall so I'm back on this project. I was going to start off doing the no fault check list one by one to a T. Problem is the TC FSM doesn't have anything like that, it is honestly rather lacking when it comes to diagnostics. There are a few pages in the multiport injection section but they are about 2 pages of visual checks (which I'm past, but will do again), a half pages of fault code explications (which I don't have) and then a page or two of tests that require that big chrysler pelican box test unit. Does anybody on here have that no fault section to share, or just a link to the most relevant thread on here for doing said test?

Also in regards to checking SMEC numbers, Do I have to pull the whole unit out to find them? I just know it's buried behind the battery and I'm sure a pain to remove so I just want to know what I'm getting into. MAP sensor numbers are pictured below.
269655


Thanks again everyone for all your help. I need to get this albatross off my neck and running asap.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
24,675 Posts
There is a separate "powertrain diagnostics manual" which shows detailed driveabilty, no start and fault code diagnostics.
We are going to take this one step at a time so there is no confusion.
Once we are 100% sure the circuit/system we are testing is operating normally we will move on.
Even though you may not have all of the equipment the flow chart specifies I will post the entire flow chart from the FSM so you can see exactly what they are asking, then I will post how to check this with what you have available.
Battery must be fully charged.
1)Test NF-2A - Checking Secondary Ignition and Ignition Timing
Test NF-2A  1.jpg Test NF-2A  2.jpg Test NF-2A  3.jpg Test NF-2A  4.jpg
a)This test is designed to be used on a car that starts and runs
b)Since this is a No Start you need to verify spark is present at all 4 cylinders and that the ignition system is capable of providing a minimum of 25 KV at all 4 cylinders, this is why I always recommend using an adjustable spark tester which can be purchased for about $10.00.


c)Set the spark tester to 25 KV and install in the plug end of the #1 cylinder spark plug wire, crank the engine for 7-10 seconds, is spark present?
Count 1-2 sparks as no spark.
Repeat on all 4 cylinders.
IGNITION - Adjustable Spark Tester.jpg
d)Once that test is completed and OK they want you to verify Cam Timing is correct.
e)#1 cylinder at TDC on a compression stroke, timing mark at bellhousing timing window is on "0".
Slot in Cam Sprocket is at 12 o'clock centerline with the cylinder head(which is on an angle), distributor rotor is pointing to #1 cylinder on the distributor cap.


Any comments/questions/concerns...Please feel free to ask.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #60
Sorry it took me a few days to rely. While I have a bunch of plug testers I didn't have an adjustable one so I had to get one. I did both these test and they did (inadvertently) point in some direction. I did the timing first, again, and it is correct, per everything above, on this thread, and this form and the FSM it is correct. Then once I had the adjustable SP tester I started that. Set to 25K and all cylinders showed good spark 10+ sparks in a 5-7 sec time. HOWEVER! I noticed that whenever the first plug is removed the "trying to start" condition goes away, won't even try. Plug it back in and the engine will fire again but not start. So that tells me this whole time only cylinder 1 has ever even been trying. I pulled all my plugs and regapped to make sure that wasn't it, in the process I noticed that none of the plugs 2-4 even smelled faintly of gas. I'm thinking that I'm getting fuel to Cylinder one but none of the rest......now what? Pull the fuel rail and injectors? Fuel pressure is a steady 50-55psi at all times and remains after key off.
 
41 - 60 of 89 Posts
Top