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Discussion Starter #1
Know I have been away and neglected my 92 Dodge Spirit R/T TIII. Been sitting for years now and trying to get it running and back on the road. Will try to make this short and hopefully provide enough info. A rat has been living in the engine compartment despite poison and traps. Has nibbled on some wires but didn't break any(except the cam sensor) and I taped them to keep them from shorting (Will go back and repair them). Dang thing did break 2 out of the 3 wires on the cam shaft sensor but soldered/repaired them.

Drained the fuel tanks as much as I could, put new gas in and re-primed the system. Key on can hear the fuel pump and get 60'ish PSI.

When test cranking the rat got crushed by the timing/belt. Rat removed and cleaned out the left overs. Tried cranking and stumbled for a second but no start. Code 54. Did unhook the battery and wait a little bit and tried again but same thing. I have similar cam sensor that would need a custom mount, but I held it by hand wile my mom cranked the car and still no luck?

Code 54
I am guessing that could be due to Cam or Crank sensor? Is there a way to test the sensors off the vehicle?
If the rat caused the timing to go off by a few teeth would that cause a code 54?
I do have the Powertrain Diagnostic Manual for the car but says you need a DRBII tool, ebay now shows what looks to be complete with the right cartridge at $400+

Oh not sure if it is related but the trip/message center didn't turn on (no display) not sure if it could be related and didn't have time to check fuses and such?


Car is still at my parents so should be going back to try again in a couple weeks. Was going to change the t-belt and double check timing. But looking to have a good plan of attack when I go back and would appreciate any help/in-site/suggestions to hopefully avoid wasting time and money would be nice!


Thanks Guys!
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks, used your pic plus my 1992 Power-train Diagnostic Manual and tried to test the Camshaft sensor. Still not sure if it is good or bad? The manual states that the sensor gets 9V supplied but didn't say what the output of the sensor should be? On my suspect cam sensor it showed 0 volts with no ferrous metal in front of it, & with metal its .05v? I have 2 PC59 sensors that have the same 3 wire connector and they show 0v no metal and .01v with? Using a small 9v battery to supply voltage (9v-8.5v).
 

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Best to check to see if the Crank sensor is still connected or if the rat ate through the wires on it also. The Crank sensor it is located on the transmission case and reads off of the clutch pressure plate.

Also the Cam sensor needs to have .035 gap from the face of the CAM sprocket . You have to use a feeler gauge to locate and lock down the Cam sensor properly. If you don't have proper gap between the cam sensor and the cam sprocket the engine won't start. Also check the female side of cam sensor connector to make sure the contact is not sprung open. Use dielectric grease or Vaseline on contacts to ensure you have good contact.

Ron
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Spent 6 or so hours on this last Friday (05/29/20).

Crank Sensor: Took off the throttle body to get to the crank sensor. Was plugged in, wires look intact. Wiped it off and did bring it back with me for testing?

Timing/Belt: Pulled the old belt and re-set timing. Might have been off due to the rat getting in between the belt/gears, plus there was a bunch of junk the rat had crammed in there too. It's been like 10 years since I last did the timing belt and have the 92 manuals for the car but having difficult getting the belt on properly with out having too much slack around the crank/intermediate/right cam pulley area? Using new belt. Did some searching but is there a step by step out there that may help me or a video? Would be nice to get the timing done next time so I can try and fire it up. With the timing belt work didn't get a chance to check out the cam/crank sensors.

Accessory belt system question, for the Idler & tension pulleys they both look to be part #4536173 which crosses over to some aftermarket, is that correct? Both pulleys have some bearing noise when I spin them by hand.

Other things on my to do list:
Coolant system: T-stat, hoses, coolant, possibly water pump, belt and possibly new pulleys.
Brake system: Re-bleed the system(new fluid), possibly replace the master cylinder, inspect the hoses and cables (have all new hoses and cable if needed).
Power steering: swap fluid and inspect for leaks when I get it running.
Check the elec. system and find out why the traveler isn't turning on?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks ntxdodge for the help.

Spent about 6 or so hours yesterday on the car. Believe I got the timing belt done right. Reassembled stuff. Car cranks and stumbles, most I got it to do was barely run for 1-2 seconds at a time, very low RPMs? No codes according to actron obd 1 scanner(CP9690) (didn't do the 3 key light blink code check). I am hoping that it isn't a timing issue, and am leaning towards bad fuel.

Fuel: I siphoned/extracted as much gas out of the tank that I could about 3-4 weeks ago and put in 4-5 gal fresh gas. I did take out a sample yesterday and lit it on fire and wasn't impressed with the flammability. (with ambient temps and the time from pouring to ignition, should have been putting off some good vapors, but didn't light till the match was right next to the fluid/gas?)
I am getting 55'ish fuel pressure at the rail, I pulled the rail and had my bro crank the car and confirmed the injectors are spraying.
Is there an easy was to jump the fuel pump circuit so that I can use the pump to empty the tank as much as possible and then put new fuel in, or what is the easiest way to empty the tank with out dropping it? When I do put new fuel in I will prime the system and change the fuel filter & re-prime.

Spark: I have the old plugs in but are in good condition(some NGK iridium I believe). New NGK wires for now (have magnecore 10mm wires though) and confirmed the coil is connected/plugged in and the wires are routed/connected correctly to the coil/plugs. I do have some new Autolite 63's just not sure what it the optimal gap to use them, I think stock gap is .035?


Accessory belt pulleys: can confirm that the 4536173 does cross over to Dorman 419-602 & Four Seasons 45975. I am using the Dorman 419-602 as my tensioner pulley and the Four Season 45975 as my idler. Seem to work/fit fine just keep your old hardware (bolts & bushings).

Traveler: checked some fuses and the traveler came back to life(the screen), then wiggled the fuse panel and it went in and out some so something is going on in that area. The door ajar picture didn't work but the chime/interior lights work properly so probably some wiring issue? Will look into next time, time permitting?
 

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You have '92 Spirit R/T ? I have '93 Daytona IROC R/T.. May be some minor differences. Sounds like you have bad gas in the tank still. Not sure how much gas you siphoned out of tank previously. If you go to fuel sending unit on gas tank to the right of the fuel pump. You will see a black rubber cap on the fuel sending unit(see picture) . Remove the rubber cap and place hose on it to gravity feed / siphon nearly all the fuel out of the gas tanks. I was amazed at how little fuel is left in the tank using the gas sending unit tap port. Probably how the dealers evacuated gas tanks with bad fuel pumps. Refill gas tank with with some premium gas.

BTW, I believe this sending unit evacuation port is on the 80s and 90s Chrysler cars.

Fuel sending unit.JPG


I would install the new Autolight plugs you have, .035 is correct spark plug gap. Use dielectric grease on the plug wire at the coil and spark plugs to ensure you have good contact.

Give this a try and see if you are able to get the engine running properly.
Ron
 

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"Been sitting for years now": injectors can be plugged. make sure they are not. same thing happened to me and all it would do was sputter and die.

check you codes to see if there is a "Rat in the system code" !!!
 

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Discussion Starter #10
You have '92 Spirit R/T ? I have '93 Daytona IROC R/T.. May be some minor differences. Sounds like you have bad gas in the tank still. Not sure how much gas you siphoned out of tank previously. If you go to fuel sending unit on gas tank to the right of the fuel pump. You will see a black rubber cap on the fuel sending unit(see picture) . Remove the rubber cap and place hose on it to gravity feed / siphon nearly all the fuel out of the gas tanks. I was amazed at how little fuel is left in the tank using the gas sending unit tap port. Probably how the dealers evacuated gas tanks with bad fuel pumps. Refill gas tank with with some premium gas.

BTW, I believe this sending unit evacuation port is on the 80s and 90s Chrysler cars.

View attachment 270768

I would install the new Autolight plugs you have, .035 is correct spark plug gap. Use dielectric grease on the plug wire at the coil and spark plugs to ensure you have good contact.

Give this a try and see if you are able to get the engine running properly.
Ron
Awesome! I am planning to go work on the car again this Friday and will try to pull the gas out as you have pictured/described! Will do the plugs and dielectric grease too. Fingers crossed with good fuel she'll comeback to life! Seems like I am so close!
 

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Discussion Starter #11
"Been sitting for years now": injectors can be plugged. make sure they are not. same thing happened to me and all it would do was sputter and die.

check you codes to see if there is a "Rat in the system code" !!!
I was leaning that way too. I did pull the rail and while my brother cranked the car the injectors did spray, the pattern looked okay. Next time I work on it I will try codes via the blinking light method. My #1 theory right now is bad/old fuel.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Update: Spent another 6 or so hours yesterday working on the car. Unfortunately still didn't want to run.

Fuel: Extracted as much fuel as I could out of the port on the fuel sender as ntxdodge pointed out. Got about 5 gallons of dark yellow out. Drained whatever fuel was left in the lines, changed the fuel filter and any hose that looked old/cracked or wasn't fitting well. Put in 5 gallons fresh just out of the pump premium, primed the system. Tried to start but again still not wanting to run longer that 1-2 seconds when it will start and is super rough low RPMs. Codes are 12 & 55. Fuel pump pressure at the rail is 50-55 psi. I tried adding throttle (after plug swap) and seem to help slightly one time getting it to run maybe 3-5 seconds (again super rough and low rpms) also had one small backfire?

Ignition: After trying to get it to run, removed the old NGK iridium's and put in Autolite 63's gaped to .035", (seem to help every so slightly). Used dielectric grease. Next time going to take spark light tester to make sure there is spark coming off the coil and making it to the plugs. (is there a write up somewhere that shows how to convert to a neon style coil as if my coil is part of the problem that is going to be the fix)

Next Step(s)????: Need help here, I brought the rail/injectors/harness home. Need to fix some missing insulation to 1 of the injectors wires. Was going to try and clean out the injectors & rail, and check the injectors for resistance (as suggested by marty mopar). I'll look it up shortly but what voltage do these injectors use? Will spend some time next time looking over the harness checking for damage or connection issues(O2)?

Other work done: New master cylinder and bleed the system with new fluid. Coolant hoses and clamps - put water and flush/cleaner in. When I can get it to run, will "flush" the coolant system and then replace the t-stat and possibly the water pump (depending on leaks or whatever I find?).
 

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The injectors power is a constant 12 volts from the ASD Relay.
The SBEC actuates the ASD Relay when it sees a Crank/RPM and Fuel Sync/Cam signal from the respective sensors.
The SBEC controls the ground side of the injectors and injector dwell/pulse time according to input from various engine sensors.
The most critical of these sensors is the MAP Sensor which is the dominant fuel control sensor.
If the MAP Sensors Baro Reading (Key On/Engine Off) or engine cranking/ running is not correct the car will run Rich or Lean depending on which way the calibration is off.
Basically you need to...
1)Verify proper spark, minimum of 25 KV at all 4 cylinders.
2)Verify their vis power at the + coil, injectors and fuel pump when the engine is cranking.
3) Verify all injectors are being pulsed with the engine cranking, Noid Lights will tell you this.
4)Map Sensor Calibration is correct and Map voltage changes from key on to engine cranking.
I did not mention fuel pressure as you have already stated you had 50 - 55 PSI static pressure( spec is 53-57 PSI).
 

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Navyboy65, One more thing to look at is the oxygen sensor and wiring. If you are having problems trying to get it to start and idle the oxygen sensor may not be reporting fuel burn as rich or lean. Chrysler/Dodge ran the oxygen sensor wiring on back side of engine below the air cleaner bracket just above the turbo. The four wire oxygen sensor harness gets fried by the heat from the turbo on the TIII cars and shorts them out. I had to cut the four bad wires out of cars oxygen sensor harness and installed new longer wire lengths. Longer length allowed me to run the oxygen sensor harness next to the vehicle wire harness under the weather stripping on the fire wall of car. This took care of some the of my idle problems on my TIII many years ago. Check this out next time you get to look at the car.

Good to hear you were able to evacuate most all of the old gas out of gas tank. Knowing the gas drain port on the fuel sender exists will help our fellow Turbo Dodge enthusiast in the future. Adding good premium gas should also help getting it started after getting all the gremlins out of the electrical system.

Ron P.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
The injectors power is a constant 12 volts from the ASD Relay.
The SBEC actuates the ASD Relay when it sees a Crank/RPM and Fuel Sync/Cam signal from the respective sensors.
The SBEC controls the ground side of the injectors and injector dwell/pulse time according to input from various engine sensors.
The most critical of these sensors is the MAP Sensor which is the dominant fuel control sensor.
If the MAP Sensors Baro Reading (Key On/Engine Off) or engine cranking/ running is not correct the car will run Rich or Lean depending on which way the calibration is off.
Basically you need to...
1)Verify proper spark, minimum of 25 KV at all 4 cylinders.
2)Verify their vis power at the + coil, injectors and fuel pump when the engine is cranking.
3) Verify all injectors are being pulsed with the engine cranking, Noid Lights will tell you this.
4)Map Sensor Calibration is correct and Map voltage changes from key on to engine cranking.
I did not mention fuel pressure as you have already stated you had 50 - 55 PSI static pressure( spec is 53-57 PSI).
So spent some time today and still no luck:

Spark: Tested for spark and first wasn't getting spark on #1 (using adjustable spark tool) . Stopped there and checked wire checked coil connector. Using the diagnostic manual checked resistance at the 3 wire connector on coil, both at .8 so that should be good. Had my brother cranking the car and all 3 wires to the coil at the connector jump to 11-12v while cranking. I got a new neon coil and made up an adapter harness. Verified that the adapter was wired correctly and tried it. Still no spark. Unhooked the SBEC 60 way connector and tested continuity/resistance on the 2 coil wires 17 & 19 both test less that 1 ohm (tired 2 different multi meters). Sprayed elec contact cleaner on the 60 way and SBEC. Followed the wires back to the 2 10 way connectors behind the battery and spray cleaned them too. Wiggled wires while testing continuity/resistance and no change. Hooked the original coil back up spark on 1 & 4 but no on 2&3. Check wires again, still good, check voltage at coil connector while cranking and still jumps to 11-12v on all 3 wires. Hook the neon coil back up and pretty sure for a short while I got spark off 1,2&4 for a short time but no on 3. Tried different plug wire but no. While verifying I still had spark on 1,2 & 4 , #2 was no longer showing spark. Put the original coil on and still just 1&4. Only 2 things I can think of that could be wrong is some how the connector for 2&3 isn't making good contact when in the coil (or coils) did spray it and light amount of new dielectric. Or computer is bad, which to me doesn't make sense as I get voltage from that wire while cranking?

Fuel: Using a noid light verified light blinks at each injector

MAP Sensor: Using my OBD1 scanner showed that while cranking the voltage does vary every so slightly while cranking (something like 2.12 to 2.14v)

O2 sensor wiring: Did look it over. Did a reroute years back and the wires still look good. Believe the OBD1 was showing .6v (not sure if that's good or bad?)
 

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I have the T3 powertrain diagnostic manual, if you have a scanner I can post the No Start diagnostics for you.
First thing it is going to ask is if the theft alarm is activated, second will be are any fault codes stored.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I have a 1992 Power-train Diagnostic procedure book for 2.2l Turbo III and I have a actron OBD1(CP9690) scanner, to me it seems the book is meant to be used in conjunction with the DRBII scanner as it can do things no generic scanner like mine can do.

But I can say no codes and as far as I know mine doesn't have the theft alarm?
 

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Do not know about an Action scanner but the OTC 4000 and the Snap On MT 2500 do everything the DRB 2 can do as far as powertrain diagnostics.
As far as I remember the OTC cannot access the BCM.
 

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Do not know about an Action scanner but the OTC 4000 and the Snap On MT 2500 do everything the DRB 2 can do as far as powertrain diagnostics.
As far as I remember the OTC cannot access the BCM.
Okay, been on the look out for a scanner for the last couple of days. Looks like the OTC 4000 may be the most economical choice. But when I get one will go through the powertrain diagnostics manual step by step, after doing a through visual inspection of everything (harness, connectors & fuses/relays). Thanks!
 

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I would check the back side of intake sprocket to make sure there is not any trash from rat or other debris from siting for years in the sprocket cavities in locations 1, 2, 3 & 4. If the cavities on #2 & #3 are not clean of debris it may be causing the Cam sensor to miss the timing point. Since timing sprocket cavities #2 & #3 are not firing and they are next to each other there may be filled with debris. Also need to make sure the .035 gap between the sprocket and CAM Sensor. If the gap is larger then .035 the cam sensor may be missing the timing positions on the sprocket.

Sprocker TIII backside.JPG


Ron
 
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