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If you are getting good spark. One other thing to look at is the Idle Air Control (IAC) Valve on throttle body. If the IAC motor is blocked or sticky from carbon build up and sitting for many years it's probably not functioning properly and the engine won't idle. Best to pull the throttle body and clean with break cleaner.
Ron
 

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Discussion Starter #22
Okay Update Time! I went over fairly well with a visual inspection and nothing stood out as to broken/damaged wires. All the connectors look good. Only issue is around the fuse box that sometimes the traveler will power up and if it doesn't I can wiggle the fuse box/wiring and it will flash or power up? But the fuse box doesn't appear to power anything that would prevent the car to start? Also About a week ago I got an OTC 4000E, Yesterday hooked it up to the car and tried to go over the diagnostic book with it. Did not have the best luck with it. The book says when cranking does the DRB say "Crank Only" "Cam Only" or say Fault this or that but the OTC doesn't say any of that? When the DRB/Book say fault I am guessing that is based on a read out? On the OTC I can see read outs (Voltages and such) but don't see the Cam or Crank sensors as options? I also found I can run some tests, primarily I can activate ignition 1 and 2 and that would cause it to power up the fuel pump and fire the corresponding spark plugs of which all plugs will fire and fuel pressure is about 58PSI. I can also test the injectors but I have already tested them and they get their signals?

I have tried to test wires and nothing is showing there is a break or short? I know in the manual it says the computer cannot tell if the timing is off, how do I verify the timing is on? (I can line up the crank marks and the cams look close but not exactly, I know things are moving slightly after I pull the pins to set tension)I tried to reset the timing and seems like with the crank lined up and the cams pined I have trouble getting the belt tight from the crank gear to the intermediate and then the right cam gear. Even when it seems fairly tight when I get the belt over the left cam gear there seems to be a fair amount of slack between the 2 cam gears.

After I tried timing again still same, tries to start but just stumbles ?
I did through some parts at it since I have some spares (MAP & AIS) after those new parts it did stumble on a littler longer and seemed like it wanted to start more? As far as I can tell I can't get the OTC to manually test the AIS? When cranking the MAP sensor does change a little (reading and voltage).

Where I think I should go from here before going back to elec system testing:
  • Make sure timing is right. (when I recently replaced the timing belt I took off the adjustable cam gears that I never cared for and put the original gears back on - they do have some paint on them could that paint mess with the cam sensor (I'll try to sand it off)? other than that gears are clean and the sensor should be less than .035)
  • Check Compression
  • Looking at NS-13A (page 124) It says "Engine exhaust - must be unrestricted" chance critters blocked up the exhaust? but it has fired up a little and backfired several times?
  • Check the PVC system for blockage
  • Check the fuel again to see if it might be dissolving deposits from the bad fuel contaminating the newer fuel?
  • Book also says check TSB's for possible help? Anyone know?
Oh one last thing I found this wire and connector under the car but don't see where it would have come from on my car and don't see anything in the manuals that show that single wire connector, anyone know? IMG_20200704_075037865.jpg IMG_20200704_075053703.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Update 07/18/2020
Spent some more time today with same results. (intermittently will start, but just stumbles and low RPM's and the occasional backfire)
Main Things:
  • Believe I can rule out restricted exhaust, unbolted the exhaust pipe after the down pipe and made no difference.
  • Tried a brand new/spare crank sensor, no difference
  • Tried to remove paint from the right cam gear (surface that faces the cam sensor), no difference.
  • Compression test:
    • Cylinder 1: Approx. 125psi
    • Cylinder 2: Approx. 150psi
    • Cylinder 3: Approx. 135psi
    • Cylinder 4: Approx. 135psi
  • In cabin elec issue. I'm get intermittent Air bag light and traveler. I can wiggle wires at and around the fuse box and get the traveler to flicker or turn on and same with the air bag light (*air bag light illuminates when the ignition is on but not cranking/running) would this affect the engine starting? I am guessing not?
  • Anti-theft; as far as I know the car doesn't have the factory Anti-theft system but when I was using my OTC 4000E in sensor test mode it says STM:32 ON vehicle theft alarm (Will upload a picture!) How can I tell if this is a Anti-theft issue? Also don't see any signs of an aftermarket Anti-theft and never had this no start problem before?(but yes it has been sitting for 7-10 years)
  • Also when using the OTC 4000E in the Module Info it shows 04714250-B is that the SBEC part # (doesn't match any TIII computer part # I've seen) or is it like the firmware version? ( The other Module Info screens say "1992", "Car", "Turbo III", "Manual Transmission" though? and this is the original computer that cam with the car when I bought it in 2001-2002)
IMG_20200718_141032003_HDR.jpg IMG_20200718_140943089_HDR.jpg IMG_20200718_140933625_HDR.jpg

Anyways could use some insight. Sensors seem to be working, best I can tell timing is Okay. Getting Fuel, Spark & have compression. If it is the computer (SBEC) is there a place that can fix it as finding another if possible might be cost prohibitive? Could it be an Anti-theft error?

Thanks for those that have tried to help!
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Update for those who are interested? A couple weeks back using all the manuals at my disposal I undid the 60 way SBEC connector and check continuity on most of the wires (did't do the cruise control ones as that shouldn't mess with the engine running?). I only had issue with the #4 wire (Signal ground K4 18BK/LB) may have just been my multi-meter, gunk on a connector but at first I some issues
Good:
Cam Sensor
Map Sensor
Air Charge temp
Distance sensor
BAD:
Ground
Coolant temp sensor
TPS
(Didn't run resistance as the multi-meter isn't that great and was using extensions & adapters that may mess with the reading)

Sprayed all the connectors with contact cleaner and that seemed to fix the Coolant & TPS, since it was several weeks ago don't recall if the #4 connector to ground resolved or if it was supposed to?

I tried to get it to run on starter fluid to see if it was fuel related and it shot flames out the throttle body? Doubt that is supposed to happen so could this mean it is a timing issue (belt and gears not set right?)

So now I am leaning towards timing or SBEC?

Any insights?
 

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Assuming there are no stored fault codes, you have proper spark (minimum of 25 KV at each plug), proper fuel pressure (53-57 PSI static rail pressure) and injector pulse while cranking...

Bring #1 to TDC on a compression stroke and check Cam Timing.


Timing Belt 2.2L T - 3.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #26
Assuming there are no stored fault codes, you have proper spark (minimum of 25 KV at each plug), proper fuel pressure (53-57 PSI static rail pressure) and injector pulse while cranking...

Bring #1 to TDC on a compression stroke and check Cam Timing.


View attachment 271633
So worked some on the car yesterday. Redid the timing, think my issue might have been not loosening the rocker arms all the way, but did so to the point I could turn the cam gears by hand. Now I am fairly certain the timing is correct.
Tried to start and no go!
Using the OTC 4000 in test mode I can test spark - yep all 4 spark. Injectors - tired with noid light and didn't see anything? But could hear some of the injectors clicking/cycling. Pulled the rail so I could see the spray and nothing really coming out of 1 & 4 and only a tiny spray coming out of 2 & 3. Tried cranking the engine and looks the same. Odd as like 2 months ago they were spraying fine? Any advice on cleaning them otherwise i'll need a new set (brands any brand I should avoid on new or rebuilt injectors?) (fuel pressure was around 55psi)
Also not sure how they gunked up but will drain the tank and change the fuel filter before putting new or cleaned injectors in! Also anyone know of a small inline (5/16") fuel injection rated fuel filter I can try to put just before the rail to help prevent stuff in the after fuel filter lines possibly getting to the injectors???

Hopefully timing is right and it's the injectors and getting that fixed with new fresh gas and fuel filter will get her to start and run???

Thanks for the help!
 

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The only way to properly clean fuel injectors is with a direct to fuel rail cleaning system.
We have the BWD Pro Cleen System.

1)Is your scanner showing the same/ correct injector pulse width for all 4 cylinders?
2)Did the Noid light flash on/off at each injector while cranking the engine?
 

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Discussion Starter #28
The only way to properly clean fuel injectors is with a direct to fuel rail cleaning system.
We have the BWD Pro Cleen System.

1)Is your scanner showing the same/ correct injector pulse width for all 4 cylinders?
2)Did the Noid light flash on/off at each injector while cranking the engine?
For #1 the scanner doesn't show pulse width, the mode I was using lets me select the injectors individually and it activates them on/off on a setting I can't change?
#2: I didn't see the noid light flash either when it was in test mode (the scanner has the injector #'s reversed(1 in the scanner looks to be 4 on the car) so I think I didn't have the noid light on the right injector wires at the right time?) And it was just me working on the car so when cranking I couldn't see the noid light in the engine compartment. But again a month or so back I did see the noid light flash for each injector when I had a helper to crank the car for me. ( but maybe something has change since then?)

I'll try to clean these injectors, but am also looking for new/rebuilt ones. Looks like rebuilt would be $30-35'ish each and new about the same $35-40 each. Also found a filter that hopefully isn't too big to put just before the rail temporarily to make sure gunk doesn't get to the injectors again? (K&N PF-1100/wix 33023 or wix 33310 - both are about the same size with 5/16 hose barbs on both sides)
 

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You are in Actuator Test Mode.
Go to Data and you will see injector pulse width.
Also look at TPS voltage, if TPS voltage is above 2.50 volts when the key is turned on the controller goes into Clear Flood Mode and will not pulse the injectors until voltage drops below 2.50.
What do the Noid Lights do on each cylinder when you crank the engine?
 

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Discussion Starter #30 (Edited)
You are in Actuator Test Mode.
Go to Data and you will see injector pulse width.
Also look at TPS voltage, if TPS voltage is above 2.50 volts when the key is turned on the controller goes into Clear Flood Mode and will not pulse the injectors until voltage drops below 2.50.
What do the Noid Lights do on each cylinder when you crank the engine?
Forgot to check the TSP voltage today. But finally got some more time to try again to get it to start.

The big update is the car really seems like it wants to run but after pulling the newer plugs I found it odd that cylinder 1 still looks brand new 2&3 are blackened and 4 had a little black? (will try to upload a picture later). Anyways back to spark we go, before had spark, but after help from my brother I only get spark on cylinder 2&3 while cranking? Not a hint on 1 &4? I bust out the books (powertrain diag) and I am getting 12v while cranking at the coil wires the B+ wire varies but get voltage too?

Coil with my multi-meter shows resistance of 1.7ohms on pins 1&3 and 2&3, books says above 1ohm replace (tried my neon coil and same thing with spark only on one bank)
DG/OR wire has 12V in test mode
BK/GY wire has 12V in test mode
DB/YL wire has 12v in test mode
Can't do the DRBII test as written in the book but I try resistance on the 2 coil wires (BK/GY & DB/YL) at the connector & 60 way and both show 0.4 ohms, which the book says I should have 10+ ohms?
So according to the book and my results I would need to replace the coil, controller and fix wires? The kicker is when I test the Coil with the OTC4000 I get spark? (spark on both banks/circuits).

I unhooked the cam sensor and tried to start and no hint of starting? re-hook and stumbles, actually with a little throttle the car tries to run on 2 cylinders for a few seconds!

So with that info, what do you guys think?????

I was thinking the ignition coil connector, but in test mode w/OTC4000 I get spark? Coil but again in test mode w/OTC4000 I get spark? Is it the computer?

IMG_20201028_165705868_HDR.jpg
 

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Which book are you using?
I have the T-3 Powertrain Diagnostics Manual at home but I will not be home until Monday.

Power to the +coil, injectors and fuel pump should be a constant 12 volts (battery voltage) when cranking/ running.
Is it?
On the - coil the voltage will be On/Off as the primary circuit is duty cycled.
This is easier to see using a 12 volt test lamp or logic probe.

If you get proper spark on all four cylinders with the actuator test the coil is good, your issue lies with control of the coil.(Cam/Crank Sensor Circuit).

I can give you more info on Monday.
 

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I would like to see picture of you're cam sprockets at TDC and the main crank also. To me it sounds like you have the timing belt installed wrong or you have rear sprocket installed 180 degrees out . The rear sprocket 180 degrees out would be tough since the sprocket would be dragging against the head.

Use some Allan wrenched to locate the cams. The 16V head has a hole that the Allan wrench goes into along with the cam has a hole the Allan wrench goes through.
See the photo on #6 post for timing
.
272479

Ron
 

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Discussion Starter #33
Which book are you using?
I have the T-3 Powertrain Diagnostics Manual at home but I will not be home until Monday.

Power to the +coil, injectors and fuel pump should be a constant 12 volts (battery voltage) when cranking/ running.
Is it?
On the - coil the voltage will be On/Off as the primary circuit is duty cycled.
This is easier to see using a 12 volt test lamp or logic probe.

If you get proper spark on all four cylinders with the actuator test the coil is good, your issue lies with control of the coil.(Cam/Crank Sensor Circuit).

I can give you more info on Monday.
Yes using my TIII Powertrain Diagnostics Manual 1992. I'd have to be at the car to double check that while cranking I am getting constant power to the coil. I am leaning towards them cam/crank sensors as well? I pulled the cam sensor and didn't want to run at all but didn't have time to mess with the crank? If I am remembering correctly, the crank controls spark? Is there a chance that corrosion or something could be on the fly wheel messing with the sensor? I would have to scope it to see?

Thanks for the help! Will try to get back to the car soon (week or so) and try more testing!
 

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Discussion Starter #34
I would like to see picture of you're cam sprockets at TDC and the main crank also. To me it sounds like you have the timing belt installed wrong or you have rear sprocket installed 180 degrees out . The rear sprocket 180 degrees out would be tough since the sprocket would be dragging against the head.

Use some Allan wrenched to locate the cams. The 16V head has a hole that the Allan wrench goes into along with the cam has a hole the Allan wrench goes through.
See the photo on #6 post for timing
. View attachment 272479
Ron
I'd like to think the last time I messed with the timing/belt I did it right, but you never know. Next time I am at the car I will try to get those pictures and try to verify the timing is on!
 

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If the Cam/Crank Sensors perform the exact function of the HEP on the 8V cars then losing either signal will result in the ASD relay being deactivated so you would lose power to the + coil, injectors and fuel pump.
When operating properly power to the + coil is constant, the SBEC makes/breaks the coil primary circuit by watching the signal from the crank sensor. (Square Wave)
If you have access to a lab scope you can watch the Square Wave signal from both sensors.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Okay spent quite a bit of time with the car yesterday. But still no park on 1 & 4!? (had manuals with me but forgot my 92 diagnostic manual)


Timing, fairly certain it is right or is only very very slightly off. I wasn't going to pull the accessory belt stuff off unless I needed too so no pictures of down there. End result is at TDC The exhaust cam lines up perfect with the hole and the intake only looks slightly off? I did paint the gears years back with spray paint but just incase I have removed the paint from the back of the intake gear surface, probably still has paint in the sensor grooves? (don't recall if I use a high temp ceramic pain or regular spray paint?)
IMG_20201105_121231677.jpg IMG_20201105_121328573.jpg IMG_20201105_121337092.jpg

I checked the crank and cam shaft sensor wires (60 way to sensor connector) and get continuity. I back probed both at the computer with cranking and my logic probe flashes while its cranking (which should mean signal). No codes.

I took off the crank sensor and with a dremel/brass brush tried to clean off the fly wheel surface just incase something was messing with the sensor? (didn't really see anything that would cause issues but I am no expert?)

Ignition:
With no spark on 1 & 4 checked wires again, look fine. Did back probe at the computer (this is from memory as I didn't write it down, #17 wire blue & yellow which should be Ignition coil for 1 & 4 had a resistance of less than 1 where as the #19 Black & gray wire Ignition coil for 2 & 3 had 9.9 ohms? Books says to check resistance with the computer unhooked just reread that) however when I do a resistance check on both wires with the computer not connected I get like .3-.5 ohms which according to the NS-5B test I should repair the wires for Short to ground? I have hooked up my powerprobe ECT300 and it shows both circuits open?

While Cranking
#17 Ignition coil wire for 1 & 4 is over 10v (11'ish)
#19 Ignition coil for 2 & 3 is also 10v (11'ish)
B+ wire also is mostly steady at 11+v for the 5 second crank test

Coil:
Primary resistance: 1&4=0.8ohms 2&3=0.8ohms Book spec says 0.5-0.7homs so I am outside of that?
Secondary resistance: 1&4=14310ohms 2&3= 14140ohms Book spec says11600-15800, so am within that spec.
(Just for info I have a new neon coil and it came up with Primary on both @ 0.7ohms and secondary 1&4=12050, 2&3=11960. I mention this as I have tried this coil and get the same results, only spark on 2&3).

Tired a 1991 R/T computer (yep ended up with one of these years back) with the simple swapping of 2 wires (#17 to 18 and 57 to 8 and I have to jump a wire from the alt output to the #9 wire if I remember correctly - I did have the car years and years ago running on a 91 tuned computer just fine - just no cruise control).
Same result no spark on 1&4 while cranking?
Incase it was a wiring issue I used a jumper wire for coil wire for 1 & 4 direct from the computer to the coil and no change. I also used jumper wires to rule out the ignition coil connector and no change. I even swapped on purpose the 2 coil wires so that 2&3 were connected to 1&4 on the coil, and 1&4 wires was connected to 2&3 at the coil. Result spark on 1&4 and no spark on 2&3.

So something is wrong with the signal from the ignition coil wire for 1&4 but what is it? Computer failure-seems odd that both computers would have the same failure? Wire-also seems unlikely as I jumped the harness wire to rule it out and still got no spark? Coil- maybe but the Neon coil does it too and in test mode all 4 get spark and when I swapped wires2&3 to 1&4 sparked while cranking?

I am going to brush up on the 3rd coil wire B+ to see possible issues? Could this still be cam or crank shaft sensor related working for cylinders 2&3 but not reading right for 1&4????
Realize not having the Powertrain Diagnostic book with me didn't help!

Alright let me have your ideas and I will give it a try next chance I get!

Thanks for the help guys!
 

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Your intake and exhaust timing cams look correct not sure about the main crank timing.
With all the problems of no spark on plugs #1 & # 4 and when you swap out the wires #2 & # 3 aren't working. Sounds like the Neon coil does the same from your info above. I'm guessing your checking Ohms at the coil terminals.

Are you doing the swap out of the plug wires at the plugs or the coil? Is it possible the #1 and #4 plug wires are bad ? The TIII spark plug wires seat in the head cavity fairly tight and when they are removed (you have some suction due to the design) you may have inadvertently pulled the plug wire center conductor off the plug side wire contact causing your problems. I would check the plug wires on the coil side and on the spark plug side to see if the wires are making contact on 1 & 4 wires. Just a thought.
You can recheck your your spark plug wiring on photo below.
272545


Ron
 

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Discussion Starter #38
Yep, checked primary resistance (pins on coil) and secondary resistance between the coil posts 1&4 , and 2&3. Same condition with trying to use the Neon coil(but will try again next time just to make sure). Plug wires are 2 old and 2 new Magnacore 10mm wires, all test ok on resistance believe the longest wire was only 4000ohms while the shortest was 2700(but do have a set of new NGK's i can try but they are fragile as the last set I broke a connector with minimal force/use)? They are routed correctly, match your pic and the book. Again I did swap the wires at the coil and got 1&4 to fire using 2&3's feed wire from the computer, and 2&3 did not fire using 1&4's feed from the computer?

Digging around the house yesterday and found another 91 R/T computer so I can try that one, if I get the same result I would find it hard to believe that 3 computers failed the same way unless that is the common way they die?

Also a friend at work knows the fleet mechanic at work who may have a DRBII or something that will allow me to read the cam/crank/dis system that I can barrow? I'll find out what the scanner is within a couple days!?
 

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Since you are able to get spark from the coil on ALL cylinders using the scanner and coil actuation test mode you know that the wiring, controller and ignition wires are fine.
Your problem is going to be in the Cam Sensor or Crank Sensor Circuits, either electrical or mechanical.
The Cam Sensor tells the controller where #1 cylinder is for ignition and injector pulse.
The Crank Sensor tells the controller the engine is cranking/running and at what RPM.

Did you also lose injector pulse on cylinders 1 and 4?
Check all 4 injectors using a Noid Light and post back.
 

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Discussion Starter #40
Since you are able to get spark from the coil on ALL cylinders using the scanner and coil actuation test mode you know that the wiring, controller and ignition wires are fine.
Your problem is going to be in the Cam Sensor or Crank Sensor Circuits, either electrical or mechanical.
The Cam Sensor tells the controller where #1 cylinder is for ignition and injector pulse.
The Crank Sensor tells the controller the engine is cranking/running and at what RPM.

Did you also lose injector pulse on cylinders 1 and 4?
Check all 4 injectors using a Noid Light and post back.
No I believe all injectors fire. I will double check but the last time I checked I just had the rail un-bolted and could see all four injectors spray.

I'll look over the books and get familiar with the wiring for both sensors.
 
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