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Discussion Starter #1
I just noticed this. 3BarRacing.com has their original "EWS" air-fuel meter with the 4 LEDs on their website. I go over to Turbos Unleashed and they've got a "Turbo Dodge specific" air fuel monitor. The only difference that I can see is that there is an extra black wire. The descriptions are the same, nearly verbatim.

Anybody know whats up with this? I already bought one from 3 Bar (Dawes Devices) because I thought that was the only place to get one! I'm sure either will work for me, but what benefit does the TD-specific meter offer??
 

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I thought the TU web site used to say that they were Dawes at one time,
 

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DawesDevices name changed to 3BarRacing about a year ago. Their products have not changed though. 3BarRacing produces custom A/F monitors exclusively for TU to work specifically on the 2.2/2.5 Turbo Dodge vehicles. The A/F monitors you buy directly from 3BarRacing are more generic and not specific to the TD vehicles.

Chris-TU
 

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The lights come on at different voltages, I have the specs on both of them (in my desk at work). I can post the specs tomorrow if you are interested in the exact specs.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Please post specs. I'm kinda pissed off now that I bought the generic one when I could have had one specific to my type of car. I didn't know you could get Dawes Devices stuff in places other than Dawes Devices.
 

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I will get the specs posted sometime before noon. You don't really need to be pissed though, if I remember right (it has been a while since looked at them) it was almost an interchange. Dodge Specific blue light = green light on the generic one and so on. The generic one will end up giving you a little bigger margin of safety against going lean. The generic one is the one I have in my van and I was concerned that I bought the wrong one for my application. But after I found the specs for both it was no big deal.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Well, if it's just a calibration thing, all my meters and power supplies at work are all NIST-traceable calibrated. I could easily re-calibrate mine. I just want to know about that extra black wire... whether it's a ground that improves accuracy or something like that.
 

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what does it matter how they are "calibrated"? if its for a narrowband sensor, anything more than 2 lights - one for rich and one for lean - is a waste. youre fooling yourself if you think you can read anything else from them.
 

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Fooling ourselves or not here are the specs.

TD model
red = .75 to .87
yellow =.87 to .90
green = .90 to .93
blue = .93 and up

generic model
red = .78 to .90
yellow = .90 to .94
green = .94 to .98
blue = .98 and up

I got the specs for the TD model off of the old dawes devices website and the specs for the generic model off of the current 3bar site. The turbos unleashed site lists the specs the same as the 3bar site, I think?? Chris (from TU) may have pulled the specs from the current 3bar site. I tested the 2 that I have just to be sure that I knew what voltages lit up which lights.

As far as the extra wire, it looks to me (from the picture on TU) like it is a shadow. If you look close at the stripped end you can see a stray strand of wire which also is the exact same starnd as the "extra" wire.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
:bang head Yes, I can see it now when I click the picture. Thank you for pointing that out.

xrattiracer, a narrowband sensor is not an on-off switch. Yes, the Volt vs. AFR curve for a narrowband curves up sharply in the middle, but that doesn't mean that data from a narrowband is useless. Because there is such a sharp curve to voltage response, it is even *more* necessary to have a meter calibrated correctly. It's trying to read a very small voltage change over the range that you should be concerned with when tuning with a narrowband. Sure, a wideband is more accurate, but anyone that says you NEED one is mistaken. I've got better things I can do with $300.
 

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My wideband was the best $250 I ever spent on my dodge, narrowband sensors are worthless what curve you mean 14.2-15.2 what can you tell from that ?
 

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actually, its not just that it curves sharply, the voltage vs afr also changes with temperature. so once again, the voltage put out by the sensor mean aboslutely nothing other than "rich" or "lean". if you NEED to know anything more than that, then you NEED a wideband, its that simple.
oh and for those of you looking for a bit cheaper more diy solution to widebands, i ordered one of these: JAW
 

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Temperature has nothing to do with O2 sensor function. If you mean that the EGT's will effect what an AFR looks like to the sensor then yeah ... but a WBO2 will be affected in the same way under those circumstances. Inside the WBO2 there is a NB sensor after all. Maybe you didn't know that?

Just goes to show that even WB's aren't 100%. They just provide data. Sometimes accurate, sometimes not. A good tune doesn't rely on one data input. A couple variables can upset the data we get from AFR readings. That data can be checked against readings from other tools at our disposal ... like an EGT, old fashioned plug reading and/or lambda readings from exhaust gas analyzers. If a fella uses a simple NB sensor and backs that data up with EGT, known fuel quality and attention to components ... the NB data isn't completely useless. It's just another tool.
 

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well just my $.02 on this. now i DID NOT have the afr gauge that tu provides but i had a narrrowband autometer and now i have an autometer wideband. so I KNOW that the am narrowband wasnt tuned to my car BUT i do know this for a FACT!!!! i left the narrow band hooked up just to see the difference of it vs the wideband. they were NOT EVEN CLOSE! my narrow would be bouncing all around and the wide was steadt as a rock. would change with throttle changes (as it should) and the narrow would jsut bounce. sometimes the narrow would say rich or lean and the wide would say somethign completly different!
i'n not tryin to take anything from anyone but i'm only sayin i spent the $70 for the autometer narrowband and i wish that i had just spent the extra money and got teh wide to begin with. i mean i ruined a set of rings with my narrow and not happening with my wide! i know EXACTLY what is happening in my engine with the wide and egt not just some like i did with the narrow and egt..
again just my $.02
 

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well just my $.02 on this. now i DID NOT have the afr gauge that tu provides but i had a narrrowband autometer and now i have an autometer wideband. so I KNOW that the am narrowband wasnt tuned to my car BUT i do know this for a FACT!!!! i left the narrow band hooked up just to see the difference of it vs the wideband. they were NOT EVEN CLOSE! my narrow would be bouncing all around and the wide was steadt as a rock. would change with throttle changes (as it should) and the narrow would jsut bounce. sometimes the narrow would say rich or lean and the wide would say somethign completly different!
i'n not tryin to take anything from anyone but i'm only sayin i spent the $70 for the autometer narrowband and i wish that i had just spent the extra money and got teh wide to begin with. i mean i ruined a set of rings with my narrow and not happening with my wide! i know EXACTLY what is happening in my engine with the wide and egt not just some like i did with the narrow and egt..
again just my $.02
It works for you so I think that's cool.
 

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So what information do people think they're getting from a narrowband sensor ?
Turbododge + narroband = broken engine and another bad rap for our mopars.
All I know is if you have good luck with a narrowband then you should be playing the lotto. :)
 

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while yes, most wideband sensors do use the same type of zirconia element internally, the way it is measured requires a microprocessor based controller to both keep the internal temperature within a very narrow range and operate the pump cell (via feedback loops, something a narrowband does not have). it is the current required by the pump cell to keep the output voltage constant that is measured to determine afr, not the actual voltage of the sensor element.
Oxygen sensor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

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First sentence of the wiki link is wrong info right off the bat. The sensors (both WB and NB) indicate the amount of o2 to be added or taken away to stay at stoich. The difference from stoich is what generates the voltage we see (both). They do not measure O2 in the exhaust.

As I wrote before, both of these sensors are fuel mix sensitive. Combustion efficiency can cause them to misread the exhaust mix. The combustion has to be complete for either sensor to provide accurate data. It's wise to have the WBO2 calibrated with EGA to see where they really are. They're great tools and a lot of you guys swear by them ... just saying that they aren't all a guy needs.

As far as WB vs NB usage .. for me anyway ... I use NB but other data along with it as well. I'm confident in my tune. The stock headed engine pulls the pig daytona down the 1/4 in the 14's on streets with shitty 60's ... gets my ass to work all week long (650 miles per) ... and my head isn't under the hood every other day ... so yeah, I'm alright with it.
The NB is capable of telling if the engines lean just fine. If something goes terribly wrong, having a WBO2 hooked up isn't going to magically save the engine either. I'll say this, if I was on stand alone working with a full effort engine I'd take you guys up on the WBO2 thing ... but not without EGA's to back up the data.

Peace.
 

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the narrow band will bounce around becasue it is reading voltage from the O2s, the WB reads the ratio and that is why it doesn't bounce. like the NB

all I use currently is NB, and running 20psi for over a year before I spun a bearing. but I of course I left myself alot of room for saftey, my 12 light NB always stayed in the top 2-3 green lights even at 22psi.

I plan to go wideband, but for now this has to do, also I have a manifold already tapped for a EGT so that will be a future added gauge too.

IMO, you cannot have TOO much information about what ig going on with your engine, egt, a/f ect... the more you have to cross check between the better you will be able to dial in the car
 
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