[c_brks]

i got a quick question for ya'll. me and my buddy were talking about balance shafts and i was wondering if there would be any benifit to removing the shafts on an srt-4? i know my buddy does it all the time on the old 2.5 and 2.2 motors and its better for them that way i just want to know if a srt could benifit from the same thing. thanks again for the help guys!

 

[njshift]

We removed the balance shafts in our 1st-2nd gen DSM's to free up some horsepower but sacrificed some vibration as a result. I have heard of some SRT-4's doing the same as well. There were also some rumors of the balance shaft assembly failing in some high horsepower srt-4 motors but I have yet to see any specific instances were the balance assembly is solely at fault. IMO, if you plan on building up your A855 you might as well remove the balancer assembly once the engine is apart to save yourself any headaches in the future. I believe there's a "How-To" thread illustrating the process on srtforums.

 

[BobsBlackACR]

in general most SRT-4's pickup ~10whp from at least removing the balance chain. If you also remove the BS assembly you will have to plug the oil feed hole that normally feeds the assembly with oil and you should also add a windage tray if you do remove the BSA.

And as far as Ive been told, if you are 400whp and above and still have the chain attached, you are risking the BSA fragging on you...

Personally I will also be doing this at some point this year and I plan to just cut the chain and call it a day.

 

[c_brks]

so it sounds like to me that there really isnt much of a benifit until you hit the higher hp range.

 

[BobsBlackACR]

so it sounds like to me that there really isnt much of a benifit until you hit the higher hp range.

Well it does free up ~10whp but at the cost of a little extra vibration so there is performance to be had by removing it. It's just generally accepted that if you are high hp, you should remove it. :thumb:

 

[njshift]

in general most SRT-4's pickup ~10whp from at least removing the balance chain.

10whp is a bit optimistic. From my experience, I have seen gains which where about half of that if not less.

so it sounds like to me that there really isnt much of a benifit until you hit the higher hp range.

That would be correct unless you like the added vibration or your in desperate need of a few extra hp.

 

[t3rse]

The benefit is not having the plastic gears come apart and **** your motor. You will see little measurable gain. More importantly, if you don't do it right you will kill shit. You have to plug the hole in the bed plate, and unless you have a real crank scraper, ie, not a pos DCR one, you need the BS case in place for oil control. Therefore, pull the asesembly, plug the hole, take the BS assembly apart, and put empty BS case back.

Vibration difference is negligible. The 2.4 is far cry from the old rickety 4g63.

 

[njshift]

The 4g63 and a855 are first and foremost iron block 4 cylinders. Both engines share horrible harmonics just like any similar designed 4 cylinder engine. I'm just curious where all these cars that have their balancer assembly fail after 300hp (seems arguable low) which some of these vendors claim...

Like I said before, if you plan on tearing into you block for a high hp build it's a smart idea to remove the balance assembly. But if your running stock or even S3 turbo I don't see much point. The stage 3 powered Speed World Challenge SRT-4's, factory backed S3powered rally cars, USTCC SRT-4's & T2 SCCA srt-4's still use there balance assemblies. If it can pose such an evident problem in the 300-400whp realm then why do these race teams continue to run those cars with the balancer assemblies in tact.

 

[t3rse]

They do fail, regardless of what the DCR and other crocks say. I would take pictures of the assembly and show you, but it isn't worth my time.

And a855s are much better balanced from the factory....

Prove that the srt race cars are using BS assemblies, I'm only sort of saying I don't believe you, more so out of curiosity...

 

[njshift]

They do fail, regardless of what the DCR and other crocks say. I would take pictures of the assembly and show you, but it isn't worth my time.

And a855s are much better balanced from the factory....

Prove that the srt race cars are using BS assemblies, I'm only sort of saying I don't believe you, more so out of curiosity...

Regardless if the balance assembly fails soley to its design or due to another problem which is still very much debated, it sure as hell doesn't fail below 400whp. If it can pose a problem in a serious high HP motor then by all means save yourself some future trouble and remove it. I just feel removing the BS assembly in a 300whp car is just silly.

Four cylinders in nature have horrible harmonics, Dodge did not invent some miracle cure to solve this problem in the A855. The 4G63 is by no means a rickety engine as you say, especially the later reiterations of the 4G63.

Dodge sells the A855 sealed crate motor with the balance assembly in tact. Please go call Dodge Motorsports if you like them to tell you the same thing.

 

[BobsBlackACR]

Let's not forget that the S3 kits you are referencing are in the 330-360whp range and not 'in the danger zone' for BSA failure. As I stated before most of what I have heard is above 400whp is when they tend to fail.

Seeing as S3 is a mopar upgrade and was in the plans from day 1, how do we not know that ensuring strenth of a 'stock' motor would handle the power of this upgrade without modifications? I guess what I'm getting at is that once you are beyond the hp levels that you can achieve from mother mopar's parts (ie above 400whp) then it's an insurance policy for the motor IMO.

 

[njshift]

Let's not forget that the S3 kits you are referencing are in the 330-360whp range and not 'in the danger zone' for BSA failure. As I stated before most of what I have heard is above 400whp is when they tend to fail.

Seeing as S3 is a mopar upgrade and was in the plans from day 1, how do we not know that ensuring strenth of a 'stock' motor would handle the power of this upgrade without modifications? I guess what I'm getting at is that once you are beyond the hp levels that you can achieve from mother mopar's parts (ie above 400whp) then it's an insurance policy for the motor IMO.

I agree. I just find it funny how some vendors market the BS delete as a necessary upgrade at 300whp. I guess crank craper & baffles sales are kind of slow.... .

 

[t3rse]

Regardless if the balance assembly fails soley to its design or due to another problem which is still very much debated, it sure as hell doesn't fail below 400whp. If it can pose a problem in a serious high HP motor then by all means save yourself some future trouble and remove it. I just feel removing the BS assembly in a 300whp car is just silly.

I'm not disagreeing with 300 hp, but they sure do fail under 400 hp. I'm guessing you've never worked on an a855....

Four cylinders in nature have horrible harmonics, Dodge did not invent some miracle cure to solve this problem in the A855. The 4G63 is by no means a rickety engine as you say, especially the later reiterations of the 4G63.

The 6 bolts are pretty rickety, a damn stout motor but rickety. I've had both, have you? A good tune can smooth out a motor quite a bit. The a855 is better balanced from the factory as well.

Dodge sells the A855 sealed crate motor with the balance assembly in tact. Please go call Dodge Motorsports if you like them to tell you the same thing.

so what the **** does this have to do with racing??? I'm sure they come with the assemblies, what I said was prove to me that the race cars you mentioned have BS assemblies, b/c I'm pretty sure they don't....

have you ever seen the BS assembly? should I take some picture for you people?

I agree that DCR and the SRT vendors are full of shit, but there is no magic failure number. I'm fed up hearing people say, "they break at x hp or blah blah". Stock internals will handle over 600 whp: proven. The BS assemblies are hit or miss, they may or may not break at any given level. If you want to take the risk, fine. People seem to forget that Dodge isn't the best company at designing liveable parts, as evidenced by their exploding flywheels and other engineering disasters.

 

[njshift]

I'm not disagreeing with 300 hp, but they sure do fail under 400 hp. I'm guessing you've never worked on an a855....

I have dropped the oil pan on my srt-4 and installed various other bolt-ons, however I have never done a full blown engine build up. Regardless of all this I know what the balance assembly looks like.

The 6 bolts are pretty rickety, a damn stout motor but rickety. I've had both, have you? A good tune can smooth out a motor quite a bit. The a855 is better balanced from the factory as well.

Yes, I had a 2nd gen gsx with a 6bolt short block w/o balance shafts. I suppose you thought you're the only person to have worked on both a 4g63 and a855. I went through 1 Turbo Trix (BME) trans then a Shep trans before I sold her. I'm not the noob you think I am. WTF does rickity refer to anyway? Extra vibration on a 15+ y/o 100,000 mile engine?

so what the **** does this have to do with racing??? I'm sure they come with the assemblies, what I said was prove to me that the race cars you mentioned have BS assemblies, b/c I'm pretty sure they don't....

have you ever seen the BS assembly? should I take some picture for you people?.

Well that answers my question. In any motor sport the requires a SEALED engine they will need to remain sealed otherwise you will be disqualified and penalized. Why do you think the call them SEALED motors? If the engine comes with a BS assembly from the factory then it remains in the engine. Should I explain this more to you?? Like I said before, call Dodge Motorsports and ask them yourself. Believe what you will but that's about as much proof I will give out to internet keyboard commandos.

I agree that DCR and the SRT vendors are full of shit, but there is no magic failure number. I'm fed up hearing people say, "they break at x hp or blah blah". Stock internals will handle over 600 whp: proven. The BS assemblies are hit or miss, they may or may not break at any given level. If you want to take the risk, fine. People seem to forget that Dodge isn't the best company at designing liveable parts, as evidenced by their exploding flywheels and other engineering disasters.

If Dodge didn't encounter the BSA assembly fail during their staged upgrade R&D or running they're factory backed stage 3 race cars then it can't be that large of a problem at those power levels. Take that for what you will, I'm not here to change your opinion.