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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
Turned out reading through was the key to an earlier issue. Randy was trying to find the old pictures of his manual MC setup. I'm PMing them to him now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
I found myself aggravated about the elitist talk of "Keeping information from people because they 'don't deserve it'. "
 

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I've never understood that way of thinking. My perspective was never that we would become the fastest in our province, in the country, in the world, because we kept everything to ourselves and had an advantage that no one else knew about. It was the opposite;

That we would share everything we knew and discovered (like others have done that benefited us) so that reaching for the top would become a True challenge knowing everyone was privy to the same info we were.

I've often taken flack on other forums for this as well, as I like to condense info so it's easily accessible, while others (that had a hard time finding it) believe everyone should be made to suffer through the same ordeals they did.

Let me tell you, there are Enough ordeals that we all have to go through in life!

Why make things harder than they have to be?
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
Together we can do anything! I liken it to how bitcoin mining works. It's not the being paid in minute cryptocurrency that's actually important. It's the massive mathematical equations that we're allowing researchers to do for maybe the good of all man, maybe? When there are many of us putting our heads together, the likelihood that one of us will come up with that one fantastic idea increases exponentially.

Somewhat odd after what I just wrote about maths; You and I think very similarly about the method of approach to the brainstorming. For us, it seems to me anyway, that it is more art than science. If you leave all the math out of the thought's and reduce your thought process to thinking about the physics as concepts when thinking of the entire engine system as a whole you eliminate being bogged down with mathematic variables you may never be able to even recognize, let alone apply. Chris probably spent weeks of his spare time running numbers trying to apply them to port flow/velocity.(Lucky that stuff is fun for him) I don't know if he ever even reached a conclusion. He moved very near my town recently. I need to go bother him and see if he made any physical models of supersonic ports I could look at. It's a concept I would like to think about more.

Even if we all got together and fed all known data(dimensions of all mechanical parts of the system, tell it how IC engines work, teach it about how octane, temperature[of all things], charge density, combustion chamber and piston face shape affects detonation) without missing anything(somehow magically) into the current smartest AI on the planet and said, "Make this system have the maximum power output", what it would give you would just be another educated guess. An AI can only think using the parameters we give it. Machine learning is still in baby stage. So setting one free and having it search for TD research info on the web would probably net a poorly written Star Wars Sequel.:ROFLMAO:

Thinking on the questions asked about how quick the Honda NA , well, all the Honda guys are capable of going, It has always seemed to me that our suspension style was designed before computer modelling got serious and is sort of locked into geometry that is basically the same as it was in 1978(specifically L body), maybe even 1975 if they had it drawn up before Simca Horizon production. Looking under a 1990s Honda is like being Alice and falling into Wonderland. At least for me. I believe that there are a great many improvements that can be made to the front suspension geometry. By now, I imagine the heavy hitters(in drag racing) have totally gone through it. OR, have most of them moved on to other things? Might be a big issue in our community. People just getting tired of the platform and moving on. Definitely not helpful for advancing it. As far as the Honda NA guys specifically; Honda engines are so light that switching to turbo like doubles the weight of their engine. Their P to W is way more affected by turbo vs NA than ours.(just an opinion)


P.S.- It took me about 18 hours over a four day period to read all 65 pages of The Chargers Quest For 9s. 😝 Hopefully I can retain a great majority of it.

P.P.S.- Rob, did you know that Brian sold his Shadow to Wallace White(Lonewolf Performance)?
 

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Can't believe you powered through that entire thread. One of the most interesting things for me is always the hindsight 20/20. Most that I know think I'm crazy for putting my thoughts out there 1/2 the time, because they are worried about the "what if you're wrong" side of the coin. I was very fortunate to learn at a very young age, that being wrong, If you can openly admit to it, can be the easiest way of learning and moving forward. So the "fear" of being wrong never enters the equation for me.

Getting to see what my Lizard brain "thought" was possible, vs what Really ended up being possible months or years down the road has always been enlightening for me. With the Charger especially, because it took so much Less and such a short period of time to get to where that thread was heading.

We do sound like we share a lot in common, which is comforting as I've not known all that many who can remain open minded while having a very Strong belief in the path ahead.

Very sad to here that Brian sold the Shadow. He has set the bar time and time again in that car, but Tons of time and $'s as well. I can only hope him the best and trust that he made the right decision for Himself.

Something happened to me in grade 12 physics and i'm sure this is not the first time I've mentioned it on the web.

We were learning the equation that describes the forces acting on a ball in motion when a light went off in my head and I raised my hand.

"I Think I get it!" I said. "What you're really saying, is that we Don't actually KNOW what is going on 100%, but for now, this is the best way we know to describe it, and 5 years from now, someone may understand it better and come up with an equation that is closer to the Truth than this one."

"EXACTLY!" Said my prof. He was a Great prof, as very few teachers I ever had were that open minded. Man you could have heard a pin drop in that class, and after, several students came up to me and asked how I could even suggest such a thing.

More than anything else I can think of, this seems to be the point in which my thinking expanded to Real World Proof > anything on paper, and the ability to always think Outside the box.

Having said that, I have always believed, that if I took the time, the #'s would always make sense and a very Good friend of mine, Mr Warren Stramer has shown this to be absolutely True!

Again, someone who is completely open minded but took the time to understand and make the math make Sense.
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
FANTASTIC! What year were you in 12th grade? I used to have discussions about particle acceleration propulsion with my physics professor in tech school when I was getting my associates in precision machining.

Not to get philosophical or religious with it, but the way I see it we are imperfect beings who don't live long enough to travel more than a couple planets away with the current power and efficiency of our propulsion systems. Where do we get off applying numbers, a concept we came up with, or words, another concept we came up with, to anything that the universe sets before us?:LOL: I'm excited that there is air to breathe here on our little blue ball. Can you imagine how excited I get about the way I can harness forces to propel myself down the road or track with my favorite little '80s spaceships?

Speaking of hindsight, I wish I had looked into the turbo cars whenever I first got into FWD Chryslers. I have been driving, repairing, and collecting TBI K cars for over twenty years.(we had a couple minivans too) I bought my first turbo car in just 2015. I might have been right there with you guys at the threshold of the amazing things this platform can do. Instead, I am playing catch-up. At least I have collected what seems like thirty years worth of TD parts in six years.
 

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This can work both ways, Gary D was always fantastic about sharing his work.

Most everyone appreciated his dedication and the findings he openly posted.

He answered questions and started the FMML in the early Shelby Dodge days.

Then he came up with a Research Group, open to anyone with $30.oo to donate.

His plan was to spend the cash on something we could buy, evaluate and share.

Soon there was $1700.oo in the kitty and that was held by a member/treasurer.

Gary's idea was to buy something to test and evaluate and share between us.

Most of us were anxious/excited to be part of Gary's plan even if it didn't work.

That was kind of the point, everyone just invest $30.oo and see what evolves.

Naturally there was one dumdum, Dan, who hounded and criticized Gary's every step.

Finally, I offered him his $30.oo to just go away but that wasn't good enough.

He wanted his $30.oo back from the group even though it was non refundable.

Finally, Gary decided to step away from the group as he didn't appreciate the conflict.

The group, who admired and respected Gary offered him the balance of the $1700.oo.

Gary, being the man of integrity that he is declined the $$ and just stepped away.

Dan thedumdum got his stinking $30.oo back but ruined the spirit of the group.

Gary was the opposite of elitist and shared more reliable info. than most.

A similar thing happened to me only on a much smaller scale.

The naysayers can often be the most aggravating.

I haven't experienced many elitists myself.

Thanks
Randy

I found myself aggravated about the elitist talk of "Keeping information from people because they 'don't deserve it'. "
 

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Discussion Starter · #48 ·
I've always liked Gary. I chat with him about his pinball machines on his youtube sometimes. I am a pinball fan myself. I have read some things that suggest that Gary wasn't as open minded as you guys say. I don't believe there were any Dans involved, but I guess the FMML was an OLD forum. Posts, even on here suggest that he believes it's his way or the highway. Pretty sure it had mostly to do with his idea that everybody should still be running wet, when obviously we get a lot more power from burning a little on the lean side. I guess he may have come around in fifteen years.:LOL:

A think tank isn't without it's conflict. If you are dedicated, you don't run away from the conflict. If anything you can ignore it. Trolls hate that. I got blocked on facebook by a guy from Wisconsin who desperately wanted to trade all of his turbo dodge stuff for my '69 Chrysler Newport convertible. I ended up having LOCAL people flake out on me and mentioned how flakey people can be on facebook. He took offense, for some reason assuming the comment was aimed at him. Came out of the gate swinging. Said I could at least say it to his face. So I told him he was awful soft skinned for being a conservative. Next thing I know, I see people tagging him all over facebook but no responses. I realized he blocked me. Only guy that's ever blocked me, and from a conflict he initiated. Sad. I ended up giving the '69 to a good friend. Same old story. The city hates us and our old Mopars.
 

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I didn't say Gary was open minded LOL

He shared his findings openly and many of us enjoyed his contribution.

There certainly was a dumdum named Dan who was the agitator.

This was back in the early 2000's when mailing lists were still a thing.

Gary didn't start the research group to argue and most appreciated this.

I still think Gary contributed much, much more than he ever reaped.

My post wasn't meant to generate conflict, I hope you understand.

It was only a friendly rebuttal to your previous statement.

Possibly I misunderstood your point.

Maybe it wasn't about cars??

Thanks
Randy

"I found myself aggravated about the elitist talk of "Keeping information from people because they 'don't deserve it'
 

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Interesting.....

I was a late comer, only getting my first PC in 04, so only web access before then was my bro's PC the few years prior.

I would drop by once a month or so and after catching wind of Gus through the magazines, would look into what was going on and that introduced me to Gary D.

I consider myself lucky, because I got to research him, Gus, Stephan B. early enough that the info was good and the L. brain could start sorting things out even before we had done anything significant.

From that time and getting on the net in 04, I got to watch as guys like Stephan would put out ideas that he had worked on and proven, just to have the so called "bench racers" with their degrees, shoot him down and try to paper prove what was better. I remember very early on, when I was just a listener and not yet ready to take on the weight of voicing my full opinion to the WWW, viewing a thread on one of the other sites where just such an occurrence was taking place. Couldn't help myself, Had to say Something!

I believe what I posted went something like this;

Are you all Crazy? The person who has the Fastest 2.2 8v in the WORLD is on here, giving you all FREE info, and you're Not ALL EARS!!!!!!

I think one person noticed what I had said, the others just went right on tearing down Stephan's contribution and I think that was near the last he posted......

After Gary stopped posting as well and info started to disappear, I made myself a promise. That I wouldn't let the same thing happen to me. After all, I was more than thick skinned, I was an advocate of the Truth, so I needed no defense or shield against the rabble rousers of the world! lol

In the beginning this worked, and people quickly came to know that I could more than take care of my own, and if you were going to come at me, you Better be wielding something of content, otherwise I would dismantle you with your own confusion. I can't remember who first coined the phrase, but I became the Naysayer Slayer! I actually looked forward to the trolls and haters, because they all ended up the same, not enough experience or content to hold water, and I would expose them ALL!

Funny how passion can Lead you so far, but sooner or later, when all you Really want is to Help people, the arguing becomes tiresome. The back and forth that you once embraced, starts to stare back at you and become a reminder of who and what you are Not. You tell yourself its for the good of the whole, but in the end, you can be giving the wrong impression to those who may have otherwise listened.

I likened my position as that of the old cliché, "only a Fool represents themselves in a court of law."

I came to realize that I was fighting a losing battle, and for what? There was nothing to be gained other than the desire to help others. Is this the same conclusion other had come to? (consciously or not)

I remember when the push came to use me and the Charger and what we were proving to discredit Gary D. After all, even though I was not accepted, I was the Next Best thing! Move over Rover, the Charger is taking Over!

What a Shock it must have been, when I would not play into it. Instead, I would defend Mr. D and anyone else who had served to pioneer this platform. I wouldn't tolerate people who had done Nothing, tearing them down, just to make themselves feel better.

Contribution is Contribution.....Period! I had been given way more to work with, later in the game, and all those who came before me, Helped me along the way, and I could never forget or belittle that.

I personally think Gary D. is more open minded that most would think, but life can beat you down. He had a # of devastating events take place in his life, the such that many, Never get over. That, and it can be hard, being the one with all of the answers. You don't Want to be, but it is what it is. You end up becoming use to your own ideas, and that very few others have the capacity to contribute (or they take whatever they can, and give Nothing back), and you get lost in your own mind, or your own Group of minds. Which to others can appear to be completely close minded.

As all of this was going on, I noticed there were a few Slick individuals who seemed to be "getting it", and that 2nd hand info, when delivered Accurately, was even More appealing then from the horses mouth!

So I've personally never disappeared, I've simply reverted back to the Shadows, where people who need help can ask and I can answer, without all the drama. While others have emerged, more capable of carrying on the daily chores of educating the masses. Guys like Todd N, Harry, Randy, ect ect..

😎
 

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I should add that I still run factory piston builds in the mid to high 10's AFR's. I used the Cyberdyne gauges in the early days and came to trust them. When I finally got the LM1 wideband and tested Luigi's Daytona @ 25psi with S60 .48 A/R turbo, it was 10.5 and that car had been together for 5+ years with plugs that stayed Sharp and just slightly dark tan color.

Forged I still stay mid to high 11's, but never in the 12's. Every car I know that got dyno tuned into the 12's suffered catastrophic failure sooner or later. I can only surmise that the tune was fine for the conditions, at the time. Things change in the real world though, and I came to the conclusion that its not worth being that close to the edge when they do......
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
SORRY Randy! That little post about my aggravation was about people in the thread on TM. It happened ten years ago, and maybe those people may have grown and changed since then. I doubt it, because when shit goes down on FB they are right there stirring the pot.
 

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Discussion Starter · #53 ·
I personally have nothing but respect for ALL the old greats. Honestly, we might not be where we are right now in the 8s and 9s without what GD laid down. I was just curious about his open mindedness because of some inflammatory posts I had read on the OLD portions of TD here. I do not like what you are referring to to be called "discrediting" or even saying that Gary's ways are obsolete. They are simply what got us to where we are now. I refer to it as "running caveman style" in a lovingly derogatory way.(double injectors/wet manifold, RRFPR, AOBE) I think I remember something about him having a bunch of his stuff stolen and vandalized, but maybe I'm thinking of another TDer.

One thing that always sticks with me from your stories is the guys who can't explain the concepts well enough to others who have issues about the validity of stated results. Like: "Well Rob's car can do this!", "Oh yeah?? How?", "Oh! Well. Uhhhhhhh....." It's like the rumor mill, but the rumor changes as soon as it hit's the first person. HAHAHA! If people can't understand and explain the concepts to others, how the hell can the information even be distributed at all? And that's before the naysayers get involved!

About AFRs and how quickly running state can go from optimal to SHIT; I am looking forward to studying more advanced stand alone engine management systems. I want to set up more, and more advanced(sensitive) KSMs. It's not like the new products are infallible, and can save your engine in any situation, but the new systems' signaling runs at light speed compared to even the SBECIIs. Every little bit of insurance you can get helps when you are trying to absolutely max out the platform like a crazy person.🤪

Recently I have thought about how I would have gone into this endeavor with a severe handicap had Randy not screwed my head on straight about exhaust manifold pressure, and I can't thank you guys enough for that. It's funny how much my brain is constantly operating on the topic of the Trans4 turbo engine system. The other day my best friend and previous business partner showed me a lathe attachment he made a while back that uses an air grinder as a makeshift toolpost grinder. (Like a Dumore) I immediately thought: "That would be perfect for clipping turbine wheels!!"
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
And Randy, PLEASE PLEASE don't keep me in suspense about the PCV any longer. I've been trying to think up the one single reason why our Trans4 doesn't need PCV when all others do for weeks! Obviously quite a few people run ambient vents. It's hurting my brain trying to think of what makes our engines special or different from any other ICE.🤯
 

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Not a problem friend, I don't do FB but understand there can be issues.

Every forum can have issues / members with both positive / negative views.

I try not to get involved in the nasty discussions that tend to get personal.

For me, it's all about learning and sharing respectfully !!

I enjoy a friendly debate to learn how others think.

Thanks
Randy

SORRY Randy! That little post about my aggravation was about people in the thread on TM. It happened ten years ago, and maybe those people may have grown and changed since then. I doubt it, because when shit goes down on FB they are right there stirring the pot.
 

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O.K. Mark, I guess it's time.

The other Mark gave up so I kind of lost interest until your post.

I asked the other Mark:

"Think about what a PCV system removes from the Engine crankcase".

He rambled on about hydrocarbons etc, etc

I asked "Hydrocarbons and?? "

Then it went silent...

It tastes much better when one gets it !!!

Give it one more try please!!

Thanks
Randy


And Randy, PLEASE PLEASE don't keep me in suspense about the PCV any longer. I've been trying to think up the one single reason why our Trans4 doesn't need PCV when all others do for weeks! Obviously quite a few people run ambient vents. It's hurting my brain trying to think of what makes our engines special or different from any other ICE.🤯
 

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Discussion Starter · #57 ·
There's everything the atmosphere has to offer in there, including water. c8h18, n2, o2, h2o, besides chemicals in the oil itself. Good God I wish water would stay out of there....😬
 

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Why do you wish water would stay out of there??

Thanks
Randy
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
Because my cars sit for long periods of time since I daily the TBI cars. I had two motors lock up on me this year. Pulled the valve cover off of the wife's GLHS. Cam's rusted up.
 

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Hydrocarbons and MOISTURE.

Obviously moisture is the enemy of Engines and it causes sludge at a minimum.

Old Engines with a road draft tube only, often suffered terrible internal sludging.

PCV's helped with this as they could draw the moisture out of hot Engines.

PCV's can't evacuate all moisture out of cold Engines so temp. is important.

If an Engine isn't up to temperature moisture hangs around to do it's damage.

On some days a glass of water is covered with moisture on the outside.

Moisture naturally forms on the inside of Engines similar to a glass of water.

Many drag racers eliminate their PCV system for the same reason we do.

They don't want their performance Engine inhaling octane reducing crankcase fumes.

On certain days some drag racers complain about moisture in their breathers.

An entire Engine must be brought up to temp to allow all moisture to be evacuated.

The larger the crankcase internally, the more surface area for moisture to form.

Twin cam Engines have more internal surface area due to a larger valve cover.

So, many eliminate their PCV for obvious reasons but they often battle moisture.

When we eliminate the PCV on our 8V turbo Engines and vent them directly we don't.

Fascinating anecdotal observation in my uneducated opinion as I'm not a scholar.

My conclusion is our Turbo Engines generate enough internal heat to suspend the moisture.

Natural internal pumping and blowby then evacuates the crankcase to the atmosphere.

The larger the crankcase exits the better as Shadow illustrates on his Engine.

Many run TBI valve covers as they have two nipples allowing a more unrestricted exit.

Any restriction in the exit can act like a venturi and this draws oil along the way.

This is why I recommend a vent to the atmosphere first to evaluate ones situation.

I've never found the need for a catch can on any of my Turbo Engines.

Unrestricted ventilation draws much less or no oil from the Engine.

Many haphazardly install a catch can and often experience new problems.

Thanks
Randy
 
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