[Taba]

Been having a crank no start issue with my '89 Dodge Daytona Shelby for a while now. I have been chasing potential causes for weeks but to no avail. Its too a point where I need some advice on where to go to further diagnose and solve my issue. Today I left with the information that the injectors are not firing due to no power to the injectors. I attached a NOID light to all injector connectors and nothing happened on all of them when I tried cranking the engine.
I went to the ASD relay to test that and the relay works, it clicks when the key is on/engine off and I can hear the fuel pump turn on for a second. I even took the Relay off and manually actuated it for a sec and test resistance readings and everything was in order. 12V is also being supplied from the red wire, which comes from the positive terminal, to the relay.
Another test I did was to see if 12V was being sent from the Relay, through the DG/BK wire, to the fuel injector connectors. When I turned the Key to the on position I read a brief flash of 12V on my multimeter at the injector connector.
I also tried checking the wires which supply constant voltage to the injectors, The 2 wires that go from the fuel rail harness connector straight to the SMEC(in the Haynes manual they are labeled the WT and TN wires), to see if there is any voltage coming from those wires and I read nothing on my Multimeter when I turned the key to the on position.

At this point I am under the impression that the computer is sending the signal to pulse the injector from the relay through the DG/BK wire, but a constant supply of power isn't being sent to the injector from the WT and TN wires attached to the 14 prong SMEC connector.
If anyone has any idea on what could be causing this issue I would greatly apricate your input. I am not very good at diagnosing electrical issues and interpreting results from electrical tests yet, so if you notice anything that seems wrong in my understanding of the EFI system then please let me know as well! This is my first project car and I am still trying to learn everything I can about every system in this car.

Other information about the car's condition: 2.5L Turbo, has spark, good compression(cylinder 1: 130; 2: 130; 3: 140, 4: 140), timing is good as well(might need further adjusting, we think its close enough to get the car running), I rewired the whole fuel rail harness and I am more than confident that it is all wired correctly.

 

[james]

I would try a spare hep if you have one. The hep has to detect motor rotation before the smec will give inj pulse. Im sure others more knowledgeable will chime in with better diagnostics. Good luck

 

[NAJ]

Welcome To TD!!!

Follow these diagnostics and post back where it leads.

No Start,No Spark 84-94 2.2/2.5L

*Before performing diagnostic tests check for any fault codes that may be present. If fault codes are present, clear them(battery disconnect) and crank the engine for 10 seconds and recheck codes. If codes are present repair them before continuing. *These tests can also be run on 91...

www.turbododge.com

 

[Taba]

Welcome To TD!!!

Follow these diagnostics and post back where it leads.

No Start,No Spark 84-94 2.2/2.5L

*Before performing diagnostic tests check for any fault codes that may be present. If fault codes are present, clear them(battery disconnect) and crank the engine for 10 seconds and recheck codes. If codes are present repair them before continuing. *These tests can also be run on 91...

www.turbododge.com

I tested the ignition coil to the distributor and there was good healthy spark, I also tested each spark plug wire and there was good healthy spark to each one. I looked at my timing mark just to give that information and at TDC it was at 12*, all other timing marks from the intermediate shaft, crank shaft, and cam shaft are lined up as well.

I would try a spare hep if you have one. The hep has to detect motor rotation before the smec will give inj pulse. I'm sure others more knowledgeable will chime in with better diagnostics. Good luck

Thank you for the input, Is there a way to test if the HEP is bad? I don't have another one and I am hesitant on throwing parts at it yet until I find a definite source of why the injectors aren't firing

 

[james]

Im not sure if there's a way to test the hep, not a bad idea to have a spare hep or two laying around.

 

[NAJ]

If you have spark you do not have a HEP issue, if the HEP was at fault you would not have power to the + coil, fuel pump and injectors.

1)Are any fault codes stored in memory?
2)Do you have power to the fuel pump?
3)If injector power is all that is missing (and it will only be present while cranking or running) you have an open circuit between the #2 harness splice from the ASD Relay and the injectors. (there are 3 splices in the ASD Relay output circuit which is the DG/BK wire)
When you manually actuated the ASD Relay was power present at the injectors, if no, is power present at the injector connector (both sides), if no, it is time to get out the ohmmeter and locate the open circuit.

PM being sent

 

[Taba]

I found no fault codes, just 12 and 55. fuel pump has power, I hear it turn on when the key is in the on position. I actuated the ASD relay and 12V was present at both sides of the injector plug on all injectors. We attached a NOID light as well while actuating the relay and the light blinked once then not again, don't know if that is normal or not.
During tests today though, it almost started up. I had a NOID light attached to the 1st cylinder injector plug to test if it will flash while cranking again and it wasn't, but after around 5 seconds the light started flashing and the engine turned over for a sec then went back to normal cranking. I don't know how and I couldn't get it to replicate what happened, it seemed like a random occurrence. Could this be a problem with the starter or battery? like the engine isn't cranking fast enough, or with enough energy, to start?
And thank you NAJ for the wiring diagrams, I have been looking all over for the diagrams for my year car, the Haynes manual is not as accurate to the '89.

 

[Glhs60]

Welcome !!

My recommendation is to stick with Jan as he's the best diagnoseer in captivity.

He likes to go step by step so try to answer all his questions in order.

Best of luck!

Thanks
Randy

 

[NAJ]

Having the fuel pump cycle on for 1 second with initial key on only tells you that the ASD Relay circuit is operating as it should, that does not verify that the ASD is being actuated during cranking.
The engine controller needs to see a crank/rpm signal and a fuel sync signal (turbo cars only) from the HEP before it will actuate the ASD Relay during cranking.
If you lose that signal you will lose all power to the injectors, fuel pump, + coil.
1)What exactly did the Noid Light do after the 5 seconds of cranking?
Normal operation is for the Noid Light to flash on/off as the engine is cranking and the injectors are being pulsed.
Did the Noid Light...
a)Flash on/off as it should?
b)Light but not flash on/off? (Ground Side Control Issue)
c)Not light at all? (Power Issue)
2)When you lose power to the injectors while cranking do you also lose power to the + coil and fuel pump?
a)Connect a 12 volt test lamp between the + coil and a known good ground, while cranking the engine and watching the Noid Light see if the test lamp stays illuminated at the + coil when the Noid Light stops blinking.
3)Using the 12 volt test lamp backprobe the DG/BK wire in the injector harness and crank the engine, the test lamp should illuminate.
a)When the Noid Light stops flashing on/off while cranking does the test lamp stay illuminated?

I am going to send you the complete wiring for your vehicle since you are using a Haynes Manual.
If you are going to keep this car it is recommended to purchase the FSM's (Factory Service Manuals).
There are 3 main manuals...
1)Engine/Chassis/Body
2)Electrical/Fuel/Emissions
3)Wiring Diagrams

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[Taba]

Having the fuel pump cycle on for 1 second with initial key on only tells you that the ASD Relay circuit is operating as it should, that does not verify that the ASD is being actuated during cranking.
The engine controller needs to see a crank/rpm signal and a fuel sync signal (turbo cars only) from the HEP before it will actuate the ASD Relay during cranking.
If you lose that signal you will lose all power to the injectors, fuel pump, + coil.
1)What exactly did the Noid Light do after the 5 seconds of cranking?
Normal operation is for the Noid Light to flash on/off as the engine is cranking and the injectors are being pulsed.
Did the Noid Light...
a)Flash on/off as it should?
b)Light but not flash on/off? (Ground Side Control Issue)
c)Not light at all? (Power Issue)
2)When you lose power to the injectors while cranking do you also lose power to the + coil and fuel pump?
a)Connect a 12 volt test lamp between the + coil and a known good ground, while cranking the engine and watching the Noid Light see if the test lamp stays illuminated at the + coil when the Noid Light stops blinking.
3)Using the 12 volt test lamp backprobe the DG/BK wire in the injector harness and crank the engine, the test lamp should illuminate.
a)When the Noid Light stops flashing on/off while cranking does the test lamp stay illuminated?

I am going to send you the complete wiring for your vehicle since you are using a Haynes Manual.
If you are going to keep this car it is recommended to purchase the FSM's (Factory Service Manuals).
There are 3 main manuals...
1)Engine/Chassis/Body
2)Electrical/Fuel/Emissions
3)Wiring Diagrams

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I completed the tests and here are the results:
1) After 5 seconds of cranking the NOID light did not illuminate at all. I conducted 2 trials of this test, same results for both trials. I had 2 NOID lights hooked to the 1st cylinder injector and the 3rd cylinder injector connectors.
2) The test lamp stayed illuminated when hooked to ground and the + coil while cranking. The NOID lights on cylinder 1 and 3 injector connectors did not illuminate at all for this test. 2 Trials were conducted, same results for all trials.
3) I backed probed the DG/BK wire with the test lamp at the female side 6 prong connector to the fuel rail harness. I cranked the engine and the test lamp illuminated but the NOID light did not on both cylinders 1 and 3 injector connectors.

We conducted additional tests that might be of use. We hooked a NOID light up to the DG/BK side of the injector connector only and the other side of the NOID light to a engine ground. When we turned the key to the on position the NOID light illuminated for a sec. Then we started cranking the engine and the NOID light illuminated constantly. It looked as if the light got dimmer the brighter in a constant interval, but it didn't flash on/off light it should when plugged in normally. I did this to both sides of the connector and the same results for both sides.

Thank you for the FSM links, I bought all three and they should arrive next week!

 

[NAJ]

We need to determine if the issue is with the power circuit or ground side control.
Checking Injector Power Circuit.
1)Using your test lamp or a multimeter connected to a known good ground, backprobe the DG/BK wire in injector connectors 1 and 3 then, crank the engine.
a)Does the test lamp stay illuminated for more than 5 seconds?
b)If Yes, then you need to check the ground side control circuits, continue to step 2.
c)If no, you need to check the injector power circuit(s), continue to "d".
d)With your test lamp still connected to the injector connector as outlined in step 1, manually actuate the ASD Relay, the test lamp should illuminate. Now perform a wiggle test on the injector harness and injector connector to see if you can get the test lamp to illuminate or turn off.
e)If the test lamp will not illuminate with the ASD Relay manually actuated do you have power at both sides of the injector harness connector?
f)If there is power on both sides of the injector harness connector but not at the injectors you have an intermittent open circuit between the harness connector and injectors, time to check continuity and terminal integrity at the harness connector. (no corroded, spread, pushed out, cracked, broken terminals)
g)If power is not present at the harness connector then you need to check the circuit from the ASD Relay to the harness connector.
Checking Injector Ground Side Control Circuit
2)If the test lamp stayed illuminated as outlined in step 1 you need to check the injector ground side control circuits.
a)Disconnect the injector connectors and the SMEC 14 pin connector.
b)Connect your multimeter between the injector connector White wires for injectors 1/2 and cavity 9 of the SMEC 14 pin connector, resistance should be less than 5 ohms, perform a wiggle test on the wiring to see if the resistance changes.
c)Repeat the same procedure on the Tan wire of the injector connectors for injectors 3/4 and cavity 10 of the SMEC 14 pin connector.
d)Check the SMEC 14 pin connector cavities 9 and 10 and the 60 pin connector cavities 32 and 33 for terminal issues such as corrosion/oxidation, spread terminals, pushed out, cracked, broken terminals.

Controller Ground Circuits
3)If the above steps do not reveal any issues check all of you controller ground circuits for < 5 ohms resistance to ground.
14 Pin Connector Cavities 2, 6, 7
60 Pin Connector Cavities 5, 15, 16,

If you notice in the wiring there are actually 4 injector control circuits, Cavities 9/10 of the 14 pin connector are the Injector Drivers that actually do all of work, Cavities 5 and 8 are "Injector Control Signal" and runs in the harness from the 14 pin connector to the 60 pin connector cavities 32/33.
I am not sure exactly how this circuit actually works, are cavities 32/33 on the logic board and they do the actual grounding/pulsing through the power board like the LM/PM setup 85-87?

There is a separate manual for Powertrain Diagnostics for the 2.5L Turbo and Turbo II that are not covered in the 3 main manuals, the main manuals do not have specific No Start Diagnostics, Fault Code Diagnostics, Driveabilty Without Fault Codes, etc. I cannot find an 89 manual on eBay, I did find an 88 which should be the same as far as powertrain diagnostics, both years use a SMEC.

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My Son had an intermittent Map Sensor Code 14 on his 94 Sundance, each time he checked voltages by backprobing the Map Sensor connector and each time voltages were correct and the problem would go away for a period of time then return.
After month's of dealing with this he decided to remove the terminals from the Map Sensor connector and what he found was...
A cracked terminal on one wire (do not remember which wire it was), when he used the backprobe pin in the connector it placed enough pressure on the cracked terminal to make a good connection so the problem did not show up until the connection was lost again.
The Moral, do not "assume" and do not take anything for granted.

 

[Taba]

We need to determine if the issue is with the power circuit or ground side control.
Checking Injector Power Circuit.
1)Using your test lamp or a multimeter connected to a known good ground, backprobe the DG/BK wire in injector connectors 1 and 3 then, crank the engine.
a)Does the test lamp stay illuminated for more than 5 seconds?
b)If Yes, then you need to check the ground side control circuits, continue to step 2.
c)If no, you need to check the injector power circuit(s), continue to "d".
d)With your test lamp still connected to the injector connector as outlined in step 1, manually actuate the ASD Relay, the test lamp should illuminate. Now perform a wiggle test on the injector harness and injector connector to see if you can get the test lamp to illuminate or turn off.
e)If the test lamp will not illuminate with the ASD Relay manually actuated do you have power at both sides of the injector harness connector?
f)If there is power on both sides of the injector harness connector but not at the injectors you have an intermittent open circuit between the harness connector and injectors, time to check continuity and terminal integrity at the harness connector. (no corroded, spread, pushed out, cracked, broken terminals)
g)If power is not present at the harness connector then you need to check the circuit from the ASD Relay to the harness connector.
Checking Injector Ground Side Control Circuit
2)If the test lamp stayed illuminated as outlined in step 1 you need to check the injector ground side control circuits.
a)Disconnect the injector connectors and the SMEC 14 pin connector.
b)Connect your multimeter between the injector connector White wires for injectors 1/2 and cavity 9 of the SMEC 14 pin connector, resistance should be less than 5 ohms, perform a wiggle test on the wiring to see if the resistance changes.
c)Repeat the same procedure on the Tan wire of the injector connectors for injectors 3/4 and cavity 10 of the SMEC 14 pin connector.
d)Check the SMEC 14 pin connector cavities 9 and 10 and the 60 pin connector cavities 32 and 33 for terminal issues such as corrosion/oxidation, spread terminals, pushed out, cracked, broken terminals.
View attachment 283872 View attachment 283873 View attachment 283875
Controller Ground Circuits
3)If the above steps do not reveal any issues check all of you controller ground circuits for < 5 ohms resistance to ground.
14 Pin Connector Cavities 2, 6, 7
60 Pin Connector Cavities 5, 15, 16,
View attachment 283874


If you notice in the wiring there are actually 4 injector control circuits, Cavities 9/10 of the 14 pin connector are the Injector Drivers that actually do all of work, Cavities 5 and 8 are "Injector Control Signal" and runs in the harness from the 14 pin connector to the 60 pin connector cavities 32/33.
I am not sure exactly how this circuit actually works, are cavities 32/33 on the logic board and they do the actual grounding/pulsing through the power board like the LM/PM setup 85-87?

There is a separate manual for Powertrain Diagnostics for the 2.5L Turbo and Turbo II that are not covered in the 3 main manuals, the main manuals do not have specific No Start Diagnostics, Fault Code Diagnostics, Driveabilty Without Fault Codes, etc. I cannot find an 89 manual on eBay, I did find an 88 which should be the same as far as powertrain diagnostics, both years use a SMEC.

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My Son had an intermittent Map Sensor Code 14 on his 94 Sundance, each time he checked voltages by backprobing the Map Sensor connector and each time voltages were correct and the problem would go away for a period of time then return.
After month's of dealing with this he decided to remove the terminals from the Map Sensor connector and what he found was...
A cracked terminal on one wire (do not remember which wire it was), when he used the backprobe pin in the connector it placed enough pressure on the cracked terminal to make a good connection so the problem did not show up until the connection was lost again.
The Moral, do not "assume" and do not take anything for granted.

Sorry it took so long to respond, spring semester has started for college and I am going to be away from home a lot more now making progression on the car slower. I was fortunately able to go home this weekend though and conduct the tests you ask me to complete.

When checking the Power circuit, the test lamp illuminated for more than 5 seconds while cranking for 1st and 3rd injectors when back probed into the DG/BK wire side of the connector.

Moving on the the Injector Ground Side control Circuit test, the resistance between cavity 9 of the 14 pin SMEC connector and the WT/DK BLU wire at the harness connector was 0.7 ohm, between cavity 9 and injector 1 it was 0.8 ohm, and between cavity 9 and injector 2 it was 0.7 ohm. The Resistance between cavity 10 of the 14 pin SMEC connector and the TN wire at the rail harness connector was 0.4 ohm, between cavity 10 and injector 3 it was 0.4 ohm, and between cavity 10 and injector 4 it was 0.4 ohm.
After a visual check of the terminals I found no loose, cracked or corroded terminals on the 14 and 60 pin SMEC connectors. pictures of SMEC side connection attached with cavities 32/33 and 9/10 marked.

Moving to step 3, the resistance reading between the signal ground: cavity 2(14 pin) and cavity 5(60 pin) was 0.8 ohm.
The resistance between cavity 6(14 pin) and cavity 15(60 pin) was 2.6 ohms, and between cavities 6 and 16 it was 2.6 ohms.
The resistance between cavity 7(14 pin) and cavity 15(60 pin) was 2.5 ohms, and between cavities 7 and 16 it was 2.5 ohms.

To answer your question, I believe cavities 32/33 are the logic module part of the SMEC since all the sensors that would usually go to the logic modules of the older year cars run to the 60 pin connector.

 

[Taba]

 

[NAJ]

I do not like the looks of the connector at the top right, it appears by the picture to have a white powdery substance in it, corrosion?
I would thoroughly clean the connectors with baking soda and water, blow dry with compressed air and then use rubbing alcohol (91%) or electrical contact cleaner to remove any oxidation from the terminals on the connectors and SMEC, be sure that the connectors are secure and tight when reinstalled.
If this does not correct the issue...

Just to be sure that this is not something simple that was overlooked I would like to see...
1)When the noid lights stop illuminating do you still have good/strong spark at the plugs?
You would have to watch both at the same time.

2)KOEO/Engine Cranking voltage readings of the ...
a)CTS

b)MAP Sensor

Code 13/14 Diagnostics/MAP Sensor Calibration

I am posting this so I do not have to keep typing this over and over and will make it easier for members to find help on their own. Fault Code 13/14... No Change In Map Voltage From Key On To Engine Start Map Voltage Does Not Equal Throttle Position. Map Voltage Low Map Voltage High Map...

www.turbododge.com

c)TPS - Backprobe the Signal (OR/DB) and Signal Return Lines (BK/LB), voltage should be between .30-.90 volts at closed throttle.
d)Do the voltages remain steady at the CTS and TPS when cranking the engine?
e)Did MAP cranking voltage change from KOEO voltage?

3)Have you swapped injectors 1/2 with 3/4 to see if the problem moves with the swap?

If all of the above checks OK...
At this point I would have to say that your issue is with the SMEC or the SMEC connectors, you will hopefully find out for sure when your FSM's arrive, you may need the "powertrain diagnostics manual" as shown in post 11.
Even though there are no fault codes stored I can send you the diagnostics for Codes 26/27, however, it would have to be either for an 87 or 90, diagnostics would be the same, you would have to adapt the diagnostics to your wiring/controller.

 

[jtoler28]

Been having a crank no start issue with my '89 Dodge Daytona Shelby for a while now. I have been chasing potential causes for weeks but to no avail. Its too a point where I need some advice on where to go to further diagnose and solve my issue. Today I left with the information that the injectors are not firing due to no power to the injectors. I attached a NOID light to all injector connectors and nothing happened on all of them when I tried cranking the engine.
I went to the ASD relay to test that and the relay works, it clicks when the key is on/engine off and I can hear the fuel pump turn on for a second. I even took the Relay off and manually actuated it for a sec and test resistance readings and everything was in order. 12V is also being supplied from the red wire, which comes from the positive terminal, to the relay.
Another test I did was to see if 12V was being sent from the Relay, through the DG/BK wire, to the fuel injector connectors. When I turned the Key to the on position I read a brief flash of 12V on my multimeter at the injector connector.
I also tried checking the wires which supply constant voltage to the injectors, The 2 wires that go from the fuel rail harness connector straight to the SMEC(in the Haynes manual they are labeled the WT and TN wires), to see if there is any voltage coming from those wires and I read nothing on my Multimeter when I turned the key to the on position.

At this point I am under the impression that the computer is sending the signal to pulse the injector from the relay through the DG/BK wire, but a constant supply of power isn't being sent to the injector from the WT and TN wires attached to the 14 prong SMEC connector.
If anyone has any idea on what could be causing this issue I would greatly apricate your input. I am not very good at diagnosing electrical issues and interpreting results from electrical tests yet, so if you notice anything that seems wrong in my understanding of the EFI system then please let me know as well! This is my first project car and I am still trying to learn everything I can about every system in this car.

Other information about the car's condition: 2.5L Turbo, has spark, good compression(cylinder 1: 130; 2: 130; 3: 140, 4: 140), timing is good as well(might need further adjusting, we think its close enough to get the car running), I rewired the whole fuel rail harness and I am more than confident that it is all wired correctly.

Try a jumper from b+ to coil +. I'm having a no injector pulse issue.