Are you going to use manual or automatic transmission?
What speed will you be using at the track?
What speed will you be using at the track?
Engine design advice needed
OK, here is the deal....I am building a new turbo race engine for the track. The rules state I can make an engine swap only if the new engine is manufactured by the same company as the car. My car is a 83 - 89 Dodge Shelby, so I can install any engine that will fit. Because I already have tons of parts, I chose the 2.2 L engine. Crank, Rods and Pistons are done, CR design at 8.5 for turbo.
Now the hard part. Because it will be on a twisty track, torque is as, if not more, important than HP. So what cam/turbo combination will do the trick, spool up quickly and deliver torque? The intake and exhaust have been ported and the head was ported and flowed with the intake and exhaust to make the 3 components work as one coordinated piece. The end result has to be like a production engine assembly, but "built, and blueprinted". In other words, I can't use components from 2 different engines unless they were offered on the same engine at some point in time, so the turbo has to have been offered on a 2.2L engine. I can use any cam and cam timing can altered.
Any advice from knowledgeable people is welcome, I know somebody knows more about this than me.
Now the hard part. Because it will be on a twisty track, torque is as, if not more, important than HP. So what cam/turbo combination will do the trick, spool up quickly and deliver torque? The intake and exhaust have been ported and the head was ported and flowed with the intake and exhaust to make the 3 components work as one coordinated piece. The end result has to be like a production engine assembly, but "built, and blueprinted". In other words, I can't use components from 2 different engines unless they were offered on the same engine at some point in time, so the turbo has to have been offered on a 2.2L engine. I can use any cam and cam timing can altered.
Any advice from knowledgeable people is welcome, I know somebody knows more about this than me.
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5 speed, w/quaffe lsd. Tracks are Laguna Seca, Sears Point, Fontana, Buttonwillow and Willow Springs. At BW and Fontana, long stretches will allow 4th gear and 6800 rpm with 225/50X15 tires. my guess is between 110 and 120.
New class will allow 17 inch rims to put more rubber on the road and the engine will double the HP from 140 at the wheels to around 275. I would like the torque to start at around 2800 and pull hard to at least 6000.
The real issue is how fast can I get up to speed, so the 3,000 to 5,800 RPM range is critical.
New class will allow 17 inch rims to put more rubber on the road and the engine will double the HP from 140 at the wheels to around 275. I would like the torque to start at around 2800 and pull hard to at least 6000.
The real issue is how fast can I get up to speed, so the 3,000 to 5,800 RPM range is critical.
Garrett TII turbo will work good for you.
Here's a thread that would help you in your quest.
http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/f279/409850-daytona-lemons-racer-lessons-learned.html
Here's a thread that would help you in your quest.
http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/f279/409850-daytona-lemons-racer-lessons-learned.html
What do the rules actually say as far as the engine and parts are concerned? You say you can't use parts that didn't come in the engine, but you changed the pistons, so this is confusing.
I agree that the Garrett turbo is your best bet. For the cam...probably look into a roller S60, or something along those lines.
What are the specs on the head? Which intake are you using?
I agree that the Garrett turbo is your best bet. For the cam...probably look into a roller S60, or something along those lines.
What are the specs on the head? Which intake are you using?
I can change internals, like the pistons, rods and cam oil pump, but the engine assembly has to be based on one offerd by the manufacturer. I cannot make a frankenstein engine with turbo form one engine that was offered and an intake from another and a head from an other. I hope that makes sense.
with that in mind, can you use a super 60 turbo in a.48 turbine housing with a modified t2 compressor housing? it will all look stock, housings will still say garrett on them and such. a s-60 would work great here and is good for 300+ hp (but not much over 300)
basically it will be a stock turbine shaft and housing,larger comp wheel with comp housing bored to fit the new wheel.
basically it will be a stock turbine shaft and housing,larger comp wheel with comp housing bored to fit the new wheel.
Yes, a Super 60 will work with a .48 housing. You could probably even get away with putting a stage 2 turbine in it and nobody knowing the difference. There are also porting tricks that can be done to the exhaust housing to help flow and spool.
Yes, the S60 works in a modified TII housing. That's all it was anyway.
Let me get this straight...if you wanted to run an '88 TI engine (2.2, mitsu turbo, blow-through), you could not run the 2-piece intake because it is from either the '86/'87 Shelby cars, an '87 TII car, or a MOPAR performance part? Not that you would WANT to run that, just asking.
I don't understand the rules...you can build the engine with aftermarket parts, but only use parts that were from the factory that came from the same engine? That makes no sense. Either you can build a friggin engine, or you can't!
Here's the thing. You seem like you've been around these cars a little, so you know a bit about them. Keeping that in mind, there are very few combinations that would be considered "frankenstein" using stock parts as the factory did almost all of the different combos. The only one that they didn't do that would be beneficial to you is the 2.5 using a Garrett turbo or the 2-piece intake. You're sticking with a 2.2, so you are WIDE open for ANY combination of parts! You would even go TIII or Masi if you really wanted to (and had the budget).
If you are seriously concerned about transient response...dump the forged crank and find a cast 2.2 crank. There are VERY few people in the TD world that actually NEED the forged crank. You instantly will loose 10#'s of rotating mass. Polish and peen the rods, then have them rebalanced. You might be ok with an aluminum flywheel since you aren't drag racing. Use a unsprung hub clutch.
I'd also suggest using Glyptol on the crankcase of the block to help oil shedding as well as using a crank scraper and/or a baffled oil pan. Run a really good crankcase breather system and run a balance tube between the head and the block so the oil drainback holes in the head aren't trying to let oil down while letting air up. I'd also clean up the flashing in the head to help oil control as well.
Port the water pump, blueprint the oil pump. Open up the oil pump pick-up opening. Get rid of the ball in the oil filter adapter.
One word: details....
Yes, the S60 works in a modified TII housing. That's all it was anyway.
Let me get this straight...if you wanted to run an '88 TI engine (2.2, mitsu turbo, blow-through), you could not run the 2-piece intake because it is from either the '86/'87 Shelby cars, an '87 TII car, or a MOPAR performance part? Not that you would WANT to run that, just asking.
I don't understand the rules...you can build the engine with aftermarket parts, but only use parts that were from the factory that came from the same engine? That makes no sense. Either you can build a friggin engine, or you can't!
Here's the thing. You seem like you've been around these cars a little, so you know a bit about them. Keeping that in mind, there are very few combinations that would be considered "frankenstein" using stock parts as the factory did almost all of the different combos. The only one that they didn't do that would be beneficial to you is the 2.5 using a Garrett turbo or the 2-piece intake. You're sticking with a 2.2, so you are WIDE open for ANY combination of parts! You would even go TIII or Masi if you really wanted to (and had the budget).
If you are seriously concerned about transient response...dump the forged crank and find a cast 2.2 crank. There are VERY few people in the TD world that actually NEED the forged crank. You instantly will loose 10#'s of rotating mass. Polish and peen the rods, then have them rebalanced. You might be ok with an aluminum flywheel since you aren't drag racing. Use a unsprung hub clutch.
I'd also suggest using Glyptol on the crankcase of the block to help oil shedding as well as using a crank scraper and/or a baffled oil pan. Run a really good crankcase breather system and run a balance tube between the head and the block so the oil drainback holes in the head aren't trying to let oil down while letting air up. I'd also clean up the flashing in the head to help oil control as well.
Port the water pump, blueprint the oil pump. Open up the oil pump pick-up opening. Get rid of the ball in the oil filter adapter.
One word: details....
i know the s60 will work in a .48 housing (not sure if he can use it due to rules)and he'll lose more then 10# by the cast crank swap. i do agree, it all comes down to details, the speed secrets book would be a great investment for him, or anyone looking to get everything they can out of their engine.
"Speed secrets"?i know the s60 will work in a .48 housing (not sure if he can use it due to rules)and he'll lose more then 10# by the cast crank swap. i do agree, it all comes down to details, the speed secrets book would be a great investment for him, or anyone looking to get everything they can out of their engine.
Now that sounds like a book worth buying!
Where do I find such a book?
Do you have any more info about it?
I learned a while back that losing weight in your vehicle isn't about finding 100lbs in one place.
Find 10lbs in 10 places.
Or go even further and, lose 1lb in 10 places; then keep going.
EVERY oz. counts!
I had GLHS#0309 back in the late 90s and, it weighed 2160lbs, with me in it.
Now, I'm a light guy(think I was about 140 back then) but,
that's some serious weight loss!
(Note: some of the weight loss techniques employed therein were........umm...."questionable" and, definitely NOT smart!:bang head
goto ebay and search mopar speed secrets, the book will pop up(2.2l fwd speed secrets) (1st edition, they made 4 editions, but they only changes were the addition of the vnt,t3 engines as they were produced) the one on ebay is going for 75.00 (way too much) if your really interested in it, i'd send the seller a message with a lower offer, the worst he can say is no.
I bought the 4th edition a month ago on ebay, brand new still sealed in the wrapper for $30...
He may not be able to swap internals, you're right. :tsktsk-tisk: Doesn't mean you can't mod them! :thumb: There ARE gains to be had there.i know the s60 will work in a .48 housing (not sure if he can use it due to rules)and he'll lose more then 10# by the cast crank swap. i do agree, it all comes down to details, the speed secrets book would be a great investment for him, or anyone looking to get everything they can out of their engine.
Well, the forged 2.2 crank is 42#'s. The cast 2.2 crank is 32#'s. Verified on a scale. So...where else is he going to lose weight with just the crank swap?
I agree losing weight is important on a race car. It is wise to be picky on WHERE you lose the weight from. *Almost* any time you can lose it from rotating or reciprocating assemblies, it is a good thing. There are cases where it's not.
I think he can use aftermarket pistons/rods. He can probably use anything different internally, it just has to appear stock. It has to be a 2.2, SOHC with whatever intake/exhaust/turbo came on a 2.2 SOHC motor between 83-89. I think what they dont want is his 83-89 shelby with a DOHC head on it, huge aftermarket turbo and a FMIC.
my choice of wording was incorrect, i appolojize :bang head but, please let's lose the implied sarcasm.:tsktsk-tisk: with chosing to run a cast crank, not only will it be lighter it will be quicker revving (compared to a forged counterpart) that is also a plus. does the rules allow for an aluminum flywheel? that is an even further gain in the quest for a lighter rotating assy.Well, the forged 2.2 crank is 42#'s. The cast 2.2 crank is 32#'s. Verified on a scale. So...where else is he going to lose weight with just the crank swap?
I agree losing weight is important on a race car. It is wise to be picky on WHERE you lose the weight from. *Almost* any time you can lose it from rotating or reciprocating assemblies, it is a good thing. There are cases where it's not.
OH.....I already got that one.goto ebay and search mopar speed secrets, the book will pop up(2.2l fwd speed secrets) (1st edition, they made 4 editions, but they only changes were the addition of the vnt,t3 engines as they were produced) the one on ebay is going for 75.00 (way too much) if your really interested in it, i'd send the seller a message with a lower offer, the worst he can say is no.
If you mean this one:
I've never referred to it as the "speed secrets" book though.
I'll have to make a mental note to refer to it as such(lol)
Thanks bro.
no problem, thats the one i was talking about, thats the first edition.
Sorry, been away for a while..
Rules: engine must retain original head and intake manifold.
Crankshaft shall be stock OEM or aftemarket as long as identical material and dimensions.
Balancing is ok.
Max .040 overbore
Rockers, Lifters are free
alternate camshafts are allowed, restrictions to lift
Ignition is unrestricted
programmable ECU is permitted
Injectors unrestricted except as to number and location
OEM oil pump can be modified
intake manifold may be port matched but no more than 1" in
to increase compression ratio, the bottom of the head can be machined. Alternate pistons, machining the head or pistons are permitted.
cars using forced induction cannot have the boost controller within reach of the driver.
alternate flywheels are permitted
So, here is where I am:
H beam rods, 8.5:1 pistons, T1 crank, T1 block, Ported intake, ported exhaust, adjustable cam sprocket, and the cam that Mike from FM recommended. I have an engine builder that is one of the best doing all the machine and assembly of the long block. Mike has the turbo ready for me.
Looks like the ECU is the next choice. Any suggestions, I want a programmable one.
Rules: engine must retain original head and intake manifold.
Crankshaft shall be stock OEM or aftemarket as long as identical material and dimensions.
Balancing is ok.
Max .040 overbore
Rockers, Lifters are free
alternate camshafts are allowed, restrictions to lift
Ignition is unrestricted
programmable ECU is permitted
Injectors unrestricted except as to number and location
OEM oil pump can be modified
intake manifold may be port matched but no more than 1" in
to increase compression ratio, the bottom of the head can be machined. Alternate pistons, machining the head or pistons are permitted.
cars using forced induction cannot have the boost controller within reach of the driver.
alternate flywheels are permitted
So, here is where I am:
H beam rods, 8.5:1 pistons, T1 crank, T1 block, Ported intake, ported exhaust, adjustable cam sprocket, and the cam that Mike from FM recommended. I have an engine builder that is one of the best doing all the machine and assembly of the long block. Mike has the turbo ready for me.
Looks like the ECU is the next choice. Any suggestions, I want a programmable one.
either fwd or boost button for a calibration or you could go with MP tune and do your own programming (tryingbe does this and loves it)
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
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