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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok so first off I have a 86 shelby charger. It has a 255 walbrol fuel pump. Stage 2 comp. 185 theromostat... bc set to 12 psi (will do 14 when I figure out this h20 inject system)..super 60 turbo turbine in stock housing..super 60 cam. Mp head gasket..and superstock wires and coil with ngk irridum plugs..anyways I just did the headgasket in some days I managed to get off from work. Now I. Lloking for a way to run 14lbs safley with the stock log intake and no i/c. After reading some forums it sounds like h20 inject is the best idea for a few more hp in a safe non detenation way. Question 1 is what is the best way to add the nozzle to the hose inbetween the turbo and the tb? What size nozzle ? And is the 249 dollar kit from fwd performance a decent kit to do this? Thks all!
 

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If you put the nozzle in the hose between turbo and tb you'll be injecting pre-turbo. Some say you can do this others say it will eat your compressor blade over time. If you absolutely want to inject pre-turbo delete your egr and put the nozzle in the block off plate pointing directly into turbo. I have mine in the manifold after turbo. If you go to the hose they make a nozzle adapter that screws into the hose, its threaded inside to accept the nozzle.

Edit: I was also able to run 14psi with just 94 pump to prevent detonation, or you could reduce base ignition time several degrees.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hmmm I don't see how the hose between the throttle bodie and turbo is pre turbo since its after the turbo. All the forums I read said that's the safe way because its not pre turbo.. also myh egr is deleted. B4. I got it someone welded a bolt in it lol. Also what degrees of timing were u at wh when u were running 14psi w/o h20 inject? I retarded mine to 14 degrees compared to the stock 12. And last pics please! If u have any pics or links? Thks!
 

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Okay before moving on we need to address some issues I'm having, understanding your rig.
An 86' 2.2 turbo should have the "log" style manifold as does my 87' Lancer. This intake set-up puts the order of things as: Filter-box, to TB, to Turbo, to Intake. Without an intercooler in the mix. The TB itself should be upright with a hose connecting it to the air-box. Then a hose attached to the bottom of the TB connects it to an L-shaped upright adapter on the turbo inlet. The turbo outlet will have a hose connecting it to a down-turn in the intake manifold.

If that is not your set-up than either someone has converted your car to the newer intake and TB style. This will orient the TB to point toward the front of the car instead of up/down, and it will be bolted directly to the intake.

Secondly 14' degrees base ignition timing is 2' advanced from the stock setting of 12'.

I can tell you what I set mine to, at different boost levels and octane pump gas, but ultimately the info is useless to you because my rig is different. Milled head, smaller cam, etc. All of which changes the burn speed in the chamber and the engines ignition needs.

If you can clarify I'll do my best check back and try to help.
 

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Also depending on a pending car purchase I may put my Alky system up for sale.
I won't post a sale ad until I take possession, but's a Devils Own base kit w/ 250psi pump, 2-10psi trigger, and 1 & 2gph injectors.

I have pics somewhere I took to do a write-up/walkthrough. I used the rear wiper fluid tank and mounted the pump in the spare wheel well (w/ the spare and room to well... spare) It has served me very well over the last 18 months. Only reson I would sell is if I get this car, then the Lancer will be returned to stock and I will have no use for it.
 

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This is what my 2.2 T1 looks like:



Mods include:

- Professionally rebuilt, balanced, lightly ported, Tll rods

- Ported/polished exhaust manifold, 2 1/2" swing valve, 2 1/2" FWD down pipe and mandrel bend exhaust, low restriction cat and Dynamax muffler

- FWD Stage ll computer, reduction pulley, rebuilt turbo

Also I have a trans cooler and an adjustable cam pulley to install.

Advice on H2o/meth injection much appreciated as this is the next mod that I very much want to do - am and ready to do!

This is the car:

 

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Yep that's a T1 with log manifold alright.
And a nice ride if I may say so.

To avoid injecting pre-turbo your looking at removing the manifold to drill and tap it.
You could go to the hose between turbo and manifold but it has a laminar air splitter in it, and you'd still have to pull the manifold to get at it.

I would recommend as far down the neck of the manifold toward the turbo as you can go, facing the drivers side.

I found that unless it was winter and I needed to worry about freezing the fuel system (if it's in tip-top shape of course) didn't need any extra fuel at 14psi, so you'll want straight water, no more than a 20-30% mix of methanol at most.

With the 1gph nozzle at 250psi I was able to start injecting around 2psi without bogging, it cooled the charge 5-10% depending on ambient temp and humidity but trailed off by about 10psi. With the 2gph nozzle I start injecting around 5-6psi and it cools about 15% right up till past 14psi.

You'll want to over shoot with the log manifold. Traditionally 25% water to fuel at injection start and 12.5% at peak boost and rpm is the goal. With the poor manifold design of the log I found that 35% and 15-17% ensured adequate water to all cylinders.

The one thing I personally had trouble with was compensating for timing. The 1gph nozzle needed no extra timing or leaning of the fuel but tapered off before peek boost. The 2gph would run hard till peak but even at 14psi the car needed less fuel or more spark than the ecu would provide. I talked to Cindy at FWDperformance and she was going to make me a re-cal for stock injectors but stage-5 that was capable of adding more timing like an intercooled car.

That's all off the top of my head right now.
Hope it helps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I thinik u might b mis understandinf the t1... it is a bllow through turbo. Which pushes through the throttle bodie. Not the intake. The turbo is facing straight up on t1s. Which pushes air throught the throttle bodie. It goes turbo, tb, intake...so if u gona do it pre turbo (before) it would b at the egr...I want to do it after the turbo between the throttle bodie and after the turbo in the 6 inch charge tube. There seems to b a misunderstand on this here. Can anyone else clear this up with me?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Another thing u said I notice is my timing which is not adavanded..it retarded. 14 degrees before top dead center the stock is 12 btc 14 is 2 degrees before that..
 

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Here is another photo of my 2.2 T1 LeBaron Mark Cross Special and some information from TD that I have been saving in a 'water/meth injection' file.





This is quite a bit of information. I hope that it helps this discussion and helps us make a best way 'menue' for a reliable water/meth system installation.


If you decide to go alcohol and more boost, ask whoever does your cal. to increase the control the charge air sensor has over timing. Adding 10% to the tables should do it.

now remember with alky injection, you have to gap your spark plugs down a bit, i was running a .035 gap, missing like a mo fo. i gapped them down to 27, no more miss. i was running -20 ww fluid.

If I wanted the cheapest way to get power with a T1 car the Devils own is a good idea. Big exhaust and a FWD stage 2 computer with cutout removed. Then a stock turbo can pump 20 PSI - The Pope

You may need a 3-bar and new cal to go beyond 15psi - or have the cutout [usualy set at 15psi] removed = call Cindy about this
= inc all BB mods will it help to send the Stage II in for elimination of the cut off and some BB mods re calibration

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1984Rampage
Just wondering. Where do you inject the alky/water in a log manifold? I plan on running alky/water injection on my logged turbo rampage.... When its finished.


I would take off the EGR thing on the compressor of the turbo. Then either tap it and pu in a fitting or add a block off plate with a fitting. Then your spraying it right at the compressor and it'll atomize it nice. Another option is that you don't need a system to run it. You can watch it with a scanner and run the stuff in there with just a washer bottle. You just end up matching boost to the flow of the pump.

the EGR on the intake is ment to be open during cold starts to pump hot exhaust into the intake tract for better emissions during cold. Then when the engine heats up the valve is supposed to shut. Problem is they don't shut and pump exhaust in causing detonation. My Shelby Dakota has this as well and detonated from it. So when they work they are nice in Alaska or here in the cold months, CA? That is a tiny help.



edit, ive heard of 1400hp mustangs running no intercooler and alky injection, turbos of course. i think its an awesome mod to something that doesnt have an intercooler.

To help answer the original question I'll describe my setup.
2.5 T1 non-intercooled, garrett turbo .48 exhaust housing. Devil's Own progressive w/#10 nozzle, 3 bar map dedicated to progressive system.
Stock injectors with 255 Walbro and pressure set to stock.
Running a 50/50 mix and 14 degrees of timing on 89 octane fuel I can run an easy 18 psi with no detonation.
I do intend to run an intercooler eventually but do love the Devil's Own by itself.
My guess is most people who tell you not to or give you some other option don't even have one so they can't even answer your question.
If I could do things over again the Devil's Own would have been my first mod.

Re: Devil's Own Progressive= Awesome
Still completely happy with this thing! I don't know of any intercooler that can protect a T1 with 16 degrees base timing on 89 octane and 20 psi with no extra fuel. Granted I turned things down until I have the fuel to support it, but no detonation at 20 psi = WOW!

Re: Devil's Own Progressive= Awesome
I'm running a 3 bar map that runs just the alky controller, my computer is a stage 2 cal 2 bar. The kit comes with instructions to wire the extra 3 bar sensor, a couple wires and a vacuum source is all you need, it's very easy!


I'd change the intake to later T1(or2) and since you're buying a new turbo just get a t2 and then get a t1 style aircleaner setup,then later on you can easily intercool it.Get rid of the log!

You will have to drill and tap a spot on the late intake for the Air temp sensor and use two 803 injectors in the two cylinders that are programmed to run lean with the log mani.I forget which two it is (sorry) but you can find them on Donovans garage site.Other sensors use the same plug (only other one is the knock sensor)

I actually love methonal, but I would run it all with E85 not just injection. In many cases people can't buy it, so methonal injection is nice. As far as the 1 piece goes. Those things are horrible untill you cut them up and redo them. Methonal burns and is as chemical intercooler. So what I don't under stand is why people don't use it instead of water always? I've seen a lot of race cars that run it with methonal. At that point people run bigger turbos and over 20 PSI. My self I have had a water injection system, but it only worked to 15 PSI. My friends build GNs, they run the injection on there engines. The FI model without an IC is a great place for it and they even use the washer bottle for the windshield. The more water they add the less power they make. Both ways don't detonate but the power changes.

For a race car I was considering the same type system. But with changes. Like adding the methenol with nitrous fogger nozels near the head. Keeping the intake dry. Then you can run 2 stages with both ends of the nozel. A serious methenol injection can be made and used to the fullest. In the end I may not run it for some time in a 4 banger. My Challenger is another great place for it with a 8-71 blower build. In that case no IC and a more caveman fuel system, a little help is nice.

So there are positives. Injecting a log T1 or any other T1 and not using an intercooler. You can build a race car and not have to worry about filling the IC lines or having pressure drop issues from the smaller ICs.

The negivtives. The systems need to stay filled. On a street car you only need to forget one time real bad to nuke your engine. So they are a race system to be safe. E85 allows the same effect, but with a dry intake and you don't run out on the street. Water doesn't burn out right, your trying to force the use of hydrogen with water injection. Methenol burns.

Then comes the engines. Our intakes suck real bad, you can barely mod them for dry air to flow better. The 1 piece barely keeps up with a stock G casting on a flow bench dry. Wet the intakes flow 20-30% less volume. On other engines you can mave more than enough intake to feed an engine anyway, our 8v engines are hurting for intake flow baddly near stock.

If I wanted the cheapest way to get power with a T1 car the Devils own is a good idea. Big exhaust and a FWD stage 2 computer with cutout removed. Then a stock turbo can pump 20 PSI with it for racing. Won't make as much power as a correctly built engine with IC, but enough for a 12 second ET with an L body with a lower MPH. So your write, most will say to go a different direction. There is a place for it and depending on what you have for a car and your wanting to go bracket racing, this kit is something to look at. The problems with this hobby stem from risky building though. People use boost controlers and other things that can destroy there engines. Once these cars blow up they go to the junk yard most of the time now. If you know what your doing, boost controlers and other things are not bad. But for most people out there they need a "completely safe" setup. This means a IC and a custom cal like FWDs. Then when they add crap fuel the engine pulls timing and boost. My self I've known many younger people that blow up there engines and thats it, TDs are junk. One of which is a guy named Tony that worked for me, he is now older and TD.com. He blew up his turbo Lancer 4 times and kept changing pistons. All because he was using a grainger valve and running too much boost. So this sytem is great for someone mature enough to handle it, not for kids starting out. I could go far with little money and a G valve with this injection. But I wouldn't run the boost with a low tank or do other foolish things because I have the experiance. For those experianced people out there, they know better. So they either are going for big power like me, past that type of kit. Or they are building a car with there kid, which equals cheap speed. I'll end up doing this with my boys, and there cars will hit trees and anything else in there way. The devils own goes right on and right off when the car is smashed lol, but they won't set it up. So these are something to make make power, they do work. They are just considered caveman to many because it was used in the 70s. But the caveman methods with boost controlers and injection can make for some really cheap speed if you have the talent to use them right. In the end it has a place and there should be a sticky regarding pros and cons to this type of thing, water injection, methenol injection and E85.

Is it possible to simply inject the methanol/water mixture into the rubber intake tube ahead of the turbo inlet completely? Hehehe. I'm a lazy bastard, I know.

Some people will swear by doing it that way so I guess it would be alright. I haven't tried it so can't speak from experience. If you're running an intercooler it's not recomended since the water will fall out of suspension in the cooler.


E85 requires a fuel system set up for it and availability is a problem for most. If you're talking about injecting it seperately you better know what you're doing because of the flammability issue. Methanol and E85 are both fuel. But if lack of fuel isn't your problem and detonation is, then water or water/meth is a wonderful addition.
I ran a volvo intercooler and couldn't run over 12psi unless I wanted to buy the high octane fuel. Of course the only 93 octane available was 25 miles away the opposite direction of where I normally drive. The devilsown allowed me to run 89 octane, advance my timing, and get rid of the volvo intercooler since it was a plumbing nightmare. I check my oil everyday, I also check my washer fluid at the same time. Pretty simple. You can also get a sensor to warn of a low level.
Some people need to run manifold boost directly to the wastegate, pretty foolproof. Others want to push the limits. That's fine as long as they know the risks involved. No matter how you achieve the extra power there are risks.

now remember with alky injection, you have to gap your spark plugs down a bit, i was running a .035 gap, missing like a mo fo. i gapped them down to 27, no more miss. i was running -20 ww fluid.

If I were going to tap the intake I would go with the elbow spraying from driver to passenger side down the log. I thought a lot about it and this would be best.

While your in there though. Do yourself a big favor and do something no-one ever talks about with the log T1's.

Replace the factory hoses with 4-ply silicone units. They are so cheap, and when you get the old one off and see the difference you'll know why I said so. I find that the couplers alone helped a lot.



Thread search. There is a guy running balls out 18 psi on a t1 log and just smoking everybody. Works great. There is always debate on where to put the nozzle.
Some say before the turbo cause it will help spread it and I could see that being a good place. I am afraid direct manifold injection would not distribute evenly because of its design but you could try that



I did this about two weeks ago. It works better than expected. Initially I was using a 1gph injector @ 250psi triggered @ 2psi. This worked well for a pseudo intercooler, the volume was low enough that it wouldn't bog down low. (The 2gph bogged a little at 2psi)

I've since put the 2gph injector back in and set the trigger for 4psi.
The non crossflow head and extremely short intake track of the T1 make it ideal.

I placed the injector in a 4-ply silicone connector used to replace the factory turbo to intake hose, using an adapter.
I tapped the rear washer tankk at the bottom and mounted the pump in my spare wheel well. (there was still room for the spare)
I ran the electrical and feed tubing through the drain plug in the well and under the car up to the driver side firewall.

I have no low-level sensor, but it seems to consume the fluid slowly and the car is tuned to run without it spraying so no need for a fail-safe.

Next I want to try progressive with a larger nozzle.


There is no point to putting it before the TB on my draw through car.
My setup goes Air-Box->TB->Turbo->Intake
I was afraid to spray before the turbo because of some peoples horror stories, So I placed a nozzle adapter in the hose between turbo outlet and intake manifold.

I wanted to use the meth/water as a pseudo intercooler. I needed it to come on low down and wasn't planning on running more boost. So I wanted the hottest possible point in the intake track and I wanted enough distance between injection and the intake runners to insure atomization even with low pump pressures and low boost.

My choices were in the hose with an adapter ($12 to replace) or take the head off to get at the intake manifold to drill and tap. No brainer there.

The rule of thumb about the TB is mainly for blow-through cars that have the TB after the Turbo.

And it works very well by the way.


Question for the other meth heads out there, did you re-gap your plug after? and to what gap?


t's a 2gph injector from Devil's Own.

The sizes are all pretty standard just depends on your set-up.
Ideally my 2.2 under 12lbs. at 6000rpm would need like a 4-5gph injector but my car is a daily, and an auto. and I baby it so it never see's north of 4500rpm, plus I wanted to start spraying down low (2-5psi) instead of just before knock would occur (10-15psi). So I ordered a 1 and 2gph. The 2gph at 250psi is closer to 3.3gph which about right for 12psi @ 4500rpm from 2.2l.


So let's stay on this, come to some conclusions and then post a thread on our step by step progress - with photos - of our new installations of water/meth systems in our cars!
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
That's great and all..but I want to know about placing the nozzle inline between the turbo and tb...anyone have pictures or has it been done?? Thks!
 

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I thinik u might b mis understandinf the t1... it is a bllow through turbo. Which pushes through the throttle bodie. Not the intake. The turbo is facing straight up on t1s. Which pushes air throught the throttle bodie. It goes turbo, tb, intake...so if u gona do it pre turbo (before) it would b at the egr...I want to do it after the turbo between the throttle bodie and after the turbo in the 6 inch charge tube. There seems to b a misunderstand on this here. Can anyone else clear this up with me?
Okay I'm going to try not to get frustrated with you here. If you ask a question on this forum please be prepared to LISTEN to the answer. If your turbo is oriented up-down and your engine bay looks like the one in the picture posted. You have a draw-through intake track commonly referred to as the "log" cars and everything I stated previously is 100% factually accurate. That is not up for debate. I won't try to convince you or educate you or help you any further. I will let a dozen other knowledgeable people straighten you out.

If your engine bay does not look like the picture and your turbo pulls air in horizontally than yes you have a blow-through design, and like I stated prior someone has done a swap because your 86' only came in the draw-through design.

Secondly regarding your comment above about timing. Listen carefully and fully read this before typing a rebuttal because again I am not interested in arguing the basic facts of the internal combustion engine. 14 degrees BTDC means below top dead center. As in 14 crank degrees before the piston reaches the top of the cylinder. The more degrees before it reaches the top the more advanced the ignition event and the more time the fuel has to burn before that piston creates it's maximum compression. 12 degrees being less than 14 means that this event happens after the 14 degree event would happen giving less time for your fuel/air mix to burn. This is important because if the fuel mix burns up before that piston reaches the top it will be acting with greater force down on the piston as the crank attempts to force it up. This results in incredibly high cylinder pressures which will in fact destroy your piston or your rods or even possibly the crank.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but please do not argue with what has been widely regarded as common sense knowledge of how your car works since long before I was even born. I'm here to help as you can see from my earlier posts. I don't know everything but I do know a bit about this. I am not here to explain the fundamentals to you let alone argue them.
 

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That's great and all..but I want to know about placing the nozzle inline between the turbo and tb...anyone have pictures or has it been done?? Thks!
A simple hose adapter from any one of the alky injector vendors will insert into the hose. The nozzle can be screwed into the adapter. Look on the DO website they have a picture of theirs I believe.
 

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To funatic, there isn't much more that can be learned about injecting the log cars.
With the exception of pre-turbo. There was a guy on here awhile back who said he had done it with no ill effect but to my knowledge hasn't reported back. I have pics of my install if I can find them. Most of the things you asked about have been worked out through trial and error. If you have questions post them.

When I posted earlier about the nice ride, I was referring to yours.
Keep up the enthusiasm, and take care of that thing there aren't many clean ones left.
Good luck with your install.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I appriate the help...and I am not trying to argue either..lol. ok so I have a draw through turbo then. I was told by others it was stated suck through..ok thk you for the correction. So the answer is I need a adapter to but inline with the charge hose for the nozzle. Correct? Also it was staed in my mp book that you are suppose to retard the timing 14 degrees for stage two. Which would b 2 degress more (before top dead center). Anyways that's beside the point. What I got from this forum is get the adapter with a 2gph nozzle. 250 psi pump. Gapp the plugs at 27..and put the timing at degrees before top dead center? Correct?
 

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I appriate the help...and I am not trying to argue either..lol. ok so I have a draw through turbo then. I was told by others it was stated suck through..ok thk you for the correction. So the answer is I need a adapter to but inline with the charge hose for the nozzle. Correct? Also it was staed in my mp book that you are suppose to retard the timing 14 degrees for stage two. Which would b 2 degress more (before top dead center). Anyways that's beside the point. What I got from this forum is get the adapter with a 2gph nozzle. 250 psi pump. Gapp the plugs at 27..and put the timing at degrees before top dead center? Correct?
No offense taken. Thank you for taking my comment in stride.
I have done what you are trying to do. So for mounting the the injector you have two options. One is the easy but sketchy way: pre-turbo and the other is the hard but reliable way: post turbo. The hose visible on top when you open the hood is extends between the air-box and the throttle body and is not suitable to mount the injector in. Water will form droplets and pool making all of those bends. Then there is a hose underneath the throttle body going straight up/down connecting the throttle body to the turbo inlet pipe, this one is shorter, maybe 4-5". You could mount there, but water will almost certainly hit the walls of the hose and reform at least partially into droplets. These droplets will pool at the bottom of the inlet pipe where it turns 90 degrees into the turbo. These larger drops will ultimately etch and damage the compressor blade. To avoid removing the intake manifold to drill and tap it you can only place the injector directly in front of the compressor blade itself in the spot where the egr used to be. Even if yours has been welded shut as opposed to blocked off. The inlet pipe is quite straight forward to remove so as you could drill and tap it. Now that still leaves you with the question-ability of injecting pre-turbo at all. Now almost if not all the major alky manufacturers say this is safe as long as you use a very small injector (1-2gph) which you would be, under high pressure, which you would be. However I am not personally convinced that makes it safe. I have seen many cases where the turbo was damaged and almost all of the manufacturers then claim the damage was due to improper nozzle location or an already worn turbo, etc. However there are those who say they have done it for many thousands of miles and that it works wonderfully without damaging the turbo. At least in the egr spot the placement is nearly ideal and your required injector size and pressure would also be ideal. Injecting pre-turbo also has the extraordinary benefit of cooling the turbo's compressor housing as it works which has the very positive benefit of reducing thermal wear on the turbo and making it behave like a larger turbo. This is why most people try it. If the risky pre-turbo solution is not an option for you then you are stuck with in the manifold. There is a hose between the turbo outlet and the manifold that would be perfect except you can't remove said hose without removing either the turbo or the manifold anyway and as it turns out inside that hose is apiece of plastic that for lack of a better term straightens out airflow. As an engineer we call it a laminar airflow device and it is very much important to the engine. Since there is no room in which to install the injector in that hose without removing the laminar device that hose is not an option. And further since the hose cannot be removed to do this without the same amount of effort as just removing the intake manifold it is my recommendation that the injector be placed there. I know that on the dodge garage there is an article about putting an injector in the top of the throttle body hat, you have to realize that when he was doing this he wasn't using a pump or nearly as much fluid. He was relying on the venturi effect to just draw fluid out of a reservoir and truthfully it did not work very well.

As for the timing deal, I understand that your MP book suggests advancing the timing to 14' degrees from twelve. On a stock car this would give some minor improvement in fuel economy no real noticeable power gains would be seen. With an aftermarket ecu I don't recommend it . Truth be told base ignition timing should be set to 3 degrees below any audible knock, based on what fuel you are running, what time of year it is, and what your dynamic compression is, among other things. If there is any variable your unsure of leave it at the stock 12 degree setting. Unless of course your getting knock at 12 in which case obviously retard it 2 degrees at a time until the knock disappears and then further one degree to eliminate any inaudible knock that may still be present.

I know that's probably not what you want to hear but with alot of reading, patience, and careful tinkering you can get the reliability and power you desire out of that car.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
ok for now im gonna have to stay away from it then.ima do more research on it. u answered my question about the 4 to 5 inch pipe..where i wanted to see if it was possible. which sadly isnt then. on the timing tho. i get a backpressure or knock around 14 psi. so when u say retard timing. u mean to set it to 10 btdc from the stock 12? i was thinking retarding it would go from like 12 to 14. heh lol
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
alsoim looking for a way to keep the temperature down at the high boost. intercooler isnt a option because i just did the headgasket on my day off and i dont have time to pull it and do the t2 swap...and as we know im holding up on the h20 inject..so n e ideas?
 
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