[Jeepster2589]

So I recently rebuilt the head on my 86 SC T1 had the head and block resurfaced, new apex head gasket with the reinforced water jackets (Mopar not available at the time) and felpro head bolts, after running the car and idling I’m getting coolant seepage on the outside edges but disappears once car has been idling for 10 or so min. Bolts were torqued according to the book at 65ft + 1/4 turn more so i don’t know what’s going on or if this is kind of normal for a fresh rebuild and will go away after actually driving it for a while, this is also a Michigan car and pretty cold in the garage at initial start up in case that’s a factor. Thanks for the help in Advance guys!

 

[Jeepster2589]

photos after warm up.

 

[d_snook6]

I would be more worried about coolant leaking into the oil, have you pressure tested the cooling system? And did you make sure the bolt holes for the head bolts were cleaned out? Did you compare the old head bolts to the new ones? Are they identical?

You could try to re torque the bolts, but It could be possible the finish on the block isn’t working with the head gasket you chosen.

 

[Jeepster2589]

No coolant in oil or vice versa, head bolts did match, ran 11mm tap through all holes and blew out before reassembly. Have not pressure tested cooling system but I’m also not loosing any coolant, reservoir is still full. Was thinking of doing a once over on the head bolts at 90ft-lbs once motors back to room temp but with them being TTY bolts wasn’t sure if that was safe or not. I have a heater running but still only gets to about 40° in here so wasn’t sure if that was a factor or not cause once the motor is warmed up the seepage stops completely.

 

[arieskcar]

Never used copper spray or anything on these engines. The Apex gasket is already tacky if that's what u used.
Also the water neck is a O-ring shouldn't be using any sealant unless the surface is pitted?

 

[Jeepster2589]

Never used copper spray or anything on these engines. The Apex gasket is already tacky if that's what u used.
Also the water neck is a O-ring shouldn't be using any sealant unless the surface is pitted?

Never used copper spray or anything on these engines. The Apex gasket is already tacky if that's what u used.
Also the water neck is a O-ring shouldn't be using any sealant unless the surface is pitted?

It is an Apex gasket but the surface was not tacky to the touch and I’ve seen a lot of recommendations on here to spray any head gasket with the copper sealant unless it’s a cometic one, and no the water neck is a reinforced copper seal not an o-ring, and no there were no pits both the head and block had been resurfaced.

 

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

what are all the little spots ?
dimples or some sort of a printed on pattern ?

and I can see why it hasn't cranked down tight
metal rings around the head bolt holes at each end and more around the oil return holes
how is that gasket going to compress uniformly..anywhere
it isn't

not to forget the material looks like ..garbage sorry

if someone offers you a mc cord gasket you wanna pass on that too .. they do not have conjoined fire rings around the cylinders which will allow the gasket to burn through between the cylinders.. then the aluminum between the combustion chambers starts to burn away

 

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

note the long openings in the head beside each combustion chamber

they match the little round holes in the gasket

being the block has the same long openings, can you see why those metal rings in the gasket would cause you to have a sealing issue ?
especially if all those dots are dimples in the gasket surface

and yes the little passage holes in the gasket for those water passages are correct..but the rest of the gasket design..isn't

 

[Jeepster2589]

View attachment 284785



note the long openings in the head beside each combustion chamber

they match the little round holes in the gasket

being the block has the same long openings, can you see why those metal rings in the gasket would cause you to have a sealing issue ?
especially if all those dots are dimples in the gasket surface

and yes the little passage holes in the gasket for those water passages are correct..but the rest of the gasket design..isn't

this is the picture of the felpro one, same dimples i believe they’re just pressing marks from where the material sandwiches together, the rings are reinforcements which is why it was recommended to me over the felpro one since the mopar one was and I believe still is unavailable at most places that use to carry them. I’ll be going over the bolts again today at 90ft-lbs with a better torque wrench and see if I have any loose.

 

[Tonatom]

Which gasket would you use between a 1995 NOS mopar gasket on top vrs the new fel pro on bottom. (or opposite since my photo loaded upside down)

The apex ones almost look like a graphite like the exhaust manifold gaskets.

Seems the ones being supplied with reconditioned heads by the turbo dodge shops are the fel pro variety.
View attachment 284787

 

[arieskcar]

I used the Apex AHG1100 on a bunch of cars no issues. I prefer it over the hard Fel-Pro gasket.

The reason for the metal rings is because the OEM gasket collapses on the sides like this 88 2.2 gasket I replaced last year with a Apex on the daily driver.

The "Mopar performance" gasket is also a POS and should be avoided in any Turbo car.
You can see the boost blows out the fire rings.

Here's 3 stages of Fel-Pro and the Apex

Top is the best Fel-Pro with clips added to the the fire rings where the Mopar blows out. its a very hard gasket and the clips look like a bandaid

2nd down is trash old design with separate fire rings and no reinforcement

3rd Down is better joined fire rings but no corner reinforcement

4th is the Apex. It has joined fire rings and a wider fire ring in the corners to prevent the blowout of the Mopar gasket and it doesn't have the hard clip of a Fel-Pro new version.

Apex vs Fel-Pro

Apex about to go on 2.5 Turbo 2 years ago it held up fine to crazy abuse

Also if you look close the Fel-Pro also has the rings to keep it from collapsing. Just have to look.
Mechanics used to add aluminum rings to composite gaskets so they wouldn't collapse in the corners. Now the Apex and Fel-Pro build them in.

NOTE.
DO NOT BUY THE DISCOUNT ROCKAUTO FEL-PRO IT IS THE JUNK OLDER GASKET THAT'S WHY I HAVE THEM.

I prefer the Apex but I did just throw a spare Fel-Pro onto a project I'm working on so I'll see how that holds up. The gasket I took off was actually the newer style fel-pro and the temperature would bounce up-and-down. I was told the car had a blown headgasket I'm not very enthused but I'll give the Fel-Pro a chance....

 

[arieskcar]

Which gasket would you use between a 1995 NOS mopar gasket on top vrs the new fel pro on bottom. (or opposite since my photo loaded upside down)

The apex ones almost look like a graphite like the exhaust manifold gaskets.

Seems the ones being supplied with reconditioned heads by the turbo dodge shops are the fel pro variety.
View attachment 284787 View attachment 284788

Those are both junk. The bottom one will collapse since it doesn't have side reinforcements and that Fel-Pro doesn't have the reinforcement clip of the newer one or the fat fire ring of the Apex.

These 2 are the only ones I would use they both are reinforced in the corners that like to blow out in the cheaper gaskets.
Apex seems better with a wide fire ring vs the clip.

 

[Tonatom]

Those are both junk. The bottom one will collapse since it doesn't have side reinforcements and that Fel-Pro doesn't have the reinforcement clip of the newer one or the fat fire ring of the Apex.

These 2 are the only ones I would use they both are reinforced in the corners that like to blow out in the cheaper gaskets.
Apex seems better with a wide fire ring vs the clip.
View attachment 284795

Interesting none of the 9296PT come up in the photos with that extra clip. Your right my gasket doesn't have that (came in the full upper head kit).

Looks like it's about $40 cdn on Amazon or shipped via rock auto for the new one? No clue if they have the clips til they get here?

So I've already wasted $40 on these two gaskets.


Is the extra clip in the corners needed on stock boost levels?

The apex seems to be the cheapest of the bunch.

 

[arieskcar]

Interesting none of the 9296PT come up in the photos with that extra clip. Your right my gasket doesn't have that (came in the full upper head kit).

Looks like it's about $40 cdn on Amazon or shipped via rock auto for the new one? No clue if they have the clips til they get here?

So I've already wasted $40 on these two gaskets.


Is the extra clip in the corners needed on stock boost levels?

I've noticed they like using the older gaskets in those kits just to get rid of the stock of the junk ones. Even the Apex kit had a different looking older design gasket on rockauto.

I use Amazon for single gasket purchases. Rockauto burned me a bunch of times..

Does your local autozone have the Fel-Pro so u can inspect it?

You can see in my 2nd to last post that pile of junk gaskets I have that's all those $5 rock auto roll the dice get burned gaskets actually the better Fel-Pro was bent 😆. I just tossed it on a project for 😆 maybe it will work. Turbo setup on a Tbi bottom end.

It started but still need to finish it see if the Fel-Pro will hold up like the Apex.

Here's the problem with Fel-Pro. I bought a TBI car and the temperature was all over the place (the car above) the guy I got it from said blown headgasket. I took it apart and found a felpro newer design. I think that gasket is just too hard unless you machine the surfaces correctly that's why I just use the Apex gasket it's like 20 bucks on Amazon. Or less on Rockauto.
The last one I did it actually had a tacky surface on it and I've never had to use any type of seal or spray on these i just put them on and drive them.

Search for threads on here about the "hard fel-pro gasket" some people don't like them but If I don't have an Apex I go with that.

This is The Apex gasket after 2 years of hard use by my drunk cousin doing neutral bomb 15PSI dumps using regular gas on a 2.5 T1. The gasket is still looking in really good shape and it protected the head surface till I put it on another car which I already did you can see in the video.

Notice the fire ring is not blown out and it still looks good the engine was actually running great till a rusted freeze plug behind the starter let go and he hit the thing so hard he dented in the cylinder liner and ruined the block...

 

[Jeepster2589]

Looks like my issue was a faulty torque wrench, borrowed a Snap On one from our shop and set it to 90ft-lbs and got almost a half turn from every single bolt, I went with the apex gasket because of the extra reinforcements and recommendations by a lot of people on the site because of the lack of availability of the MP performance one so I was pretty confident it wasn’t a faulty gasket.

 

[arieskcar]

Looks like my issue was a faulty torque wrench, borrowed a Snap On one from our shop and set it to 90ft-lbs and got almost a half turn from every single bolt, I went with the apex gasket because of the extra reinforcements and recommendations by a lot of people on the site because of the lack of availability of the MP performance one so I was pretty confident it wasn’t a faulty gasket.

Check my previous post you're not missing much with the MP performance gasket. This was a 300 HP 2.5. The "Mp performance" gasket blew out in the same spot as usual 🙄

I've had luck so far using a beam type torque wrench. I don't trust those click ones because if it doesn't click you could have serious problems.

I heard if the bolts cannot do 90 or 95' pounds that they are stretched and should be replaced I usually run mine to about 95 just to be safe. I only use the Apex gasket or the hard Fel-Pro if that's all that's around from the local store.

 

[Tonatom]

Thanks guys. I'll order an apex one to be safe from amazon USA.

 

[d_snook6]

A pic of the mopar gaskets P4452005 and P4452006AB (about 5 or 6 years old)
I have mopar performance gaskets in both my shadow and duster with good results. Ran about 23psi consistently in the duster on a 2.5cb.

 

[Dr. Johny Dodge]

I like that MP '006 gasket on the right ^

reason being , THE BEST composite headgasket ever offered for the 2.2 was the fel pro print a seal gasket ..now long discontinued
so good it survived and worked fine even given a wee little mistake I made one spring putting "that year's motor together
yep it sealed and never blew out .. eventhough the following year when I hadda replace yet another lower end (spun rod bearings were an issue)

I discovered I had forgotten the 1/4 turn putting things together
I went to loosen the head bolts and was surprised I'd left then at only 65 pounds.. they came out..a little too easy

good gasket 65#'s torque and 12 pounds of boost..and I used to beat the absolute living hell outta my engines back in the day.. every day

I refused to use mopar gaskets 'cause they rotted at the water passages at 3-4 years of age

I wouldn't buy that apex gasket..reinforcing rings around the non pressurized oil drain back holes look like a joke..sorry ..totally un needed

the typical fel pro permatorque head gaskets were created way back when all cars used cast iron heads.. that's why you need the copper spray on those beause the aluminum expands and contracts to much

thus the old print a seal gasket or that mopar '006 gasket with the printed seal is what you really want

 

[arieskcar]

I like that MP '006 gasket on the right ^

reason being , THE BEST composite headgasket ever offered for the 2.2 was the fel pro print a seal gasket ..now long discontinued
so good it survived and worked fine even given a wee little mistake I made one spring putting "that year's motor together
yep it sealed and never blew out .. eventhough the following year when I hadda replace yet another lower end (spun rod bearings were an issue)

I discovered I had forgotten the 1/4 turn putting things together
I went to loosen the head bolts and was surprised I'd left then at only 65 pounds.. they came out..a little too easy

good gasket 65#'s torque and 12 pounds of boost..and I used to beat the absolute living hell outta my engines back in the day.. every day

I refused to use mopar gaskets 'cause they rotted at the water passages at 3-4 years of age

I wouldn't buy that apex gasket..reinforcing rings around the non pressurized oil drain back holes look like a joke..sorry ..totally un needed

the typical fel pro permatorque head gaskets were created way back when all cars used cast iron heads.. that's why you need the copper spray on those beause the aluminum expands and contracts to much

thus the old print a seal gasket or that mopar '006 gasket with the printed seal is what you really want

That gasket on the right will blow up his engine. 86 was not cross drilled so it will block the steam ports and ruin the head and maybe block.


The difference between those gaskets was cross drilled only or steam passages that's why I like the Apex or fel-pro they have both so you can use it on any engine.

And the added reinforcement helps for longevity and durability at high boost or even Tbi applications...