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Discussion Starter #21
I have a stock TIII fuel rail bought from FWD, I don't understand why the fuel rail play a role in delivery the fuel needed, this is not only linked with the injectors, fuel pressure and delivery fuel time (CPU) ?

I have not a dead line for the engine to be ready, the building is only limited by the time required to find parts and money to buy them. If it could be done for the end of this year, that would be good.
I have real problem (real is even not appropriate) to buy parts from our vendors, I was waiting and answer from one of them since nearly one year and without the help of Harry I would not have got the parts needed.
However as I progress, I need more parts and unfortunately I have again the same problem. I do not have FB or can order parts by phone, so I only use PM or emails, that's may be the cause of difficulties to order parts.

I would like to use the stock SMEC harness in order to keep things simple for me.
However the intake doesn't clear the distributor and even if that would be the case, the smaller I-shaft sprocket would prevent me to do this.
So I have to put the distributor at the end of the exhaust camshaft, like Simon (turbovanman²) did but unfortunately he is no more active to make the required parts I need.
There is of course be the option of an aftermarket ECU but this adds more difficulties.

For building the engine, the situation here is a pita, nobody want or know how to rebuild an engine, I found a shop which makes rally cars but the boss is not interested to work on my car unless I would pay 5 grands !
I found a retired mechanic who accepted to help me and I have the address of a machinist who can bore the cylinders, that is the only option I have.
So "degreeing the cams properly" makes me "smile", it is only another problem that is added to the others. I try to progress step by step.

When you add my lack of knowledge in building engines, difficulties to order parts, crazy shipping cost and taxes I think that many would have not tried out a such building.
However I'm learning everyday with experienced users like you who accept to share their knowledge and that's give me my "fuel" to continue.
 

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OK, was thinking you were going to convert over to full TIII SBEC electronics in that Shadow and Knowing what that takes, it had me a little worried for you.

Seeing now that your just looking at running the TIII head on your 2.5 that changes things. Some for the better, some possibly not so much. (lots of parts to figure out)
 

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I have a stock TIII fuel rail bought from FWD, I don't understand why the fuel rail play a role in delivery the fuel needed, this is not only linked with the injectors, fuel pressure and delivery fuel time (CPU) ?

Let me first clear up what I said about +40's being enough. That's taking a few things into consideration. That your just driving on the street with as much boost as 93 octane fuel can support. If you change your mind and decide you want to run 30psi boost the +40's will not be enough. Now, you could add meth and then you'd be OK and could do that on top of pump gas.

On to the fuel rail. +40's can support 400hp with stock rail, but the pressure you need to run from lack of volume in rail gets ridiculous.

So Larger volume rail makes +40's work more efficiently and on less rail pressure ;)
 

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with the larger fuel rail one should consider a larger fuel line back to the pump and tank as well as feeding fuel to both ends of the fuel rail to prevent one end going / being lean
 

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with the larger fuel rail one should consider a larger fuel line back to the pump and tank as well as feeding fuel to both ends of the fuel rail to prevent one end going / being lean
Yep, have always gone 3/8 feed and used the 5/16 stock feed line for return, on anything over 350hp anyways.....
 

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Discussion Starter #27
Thanks for these inputs
That's something I didn't think about. Assuming fuel pump pressure remains the same, going with a bigger diameter leads to a higher maximal flow.

This also means more work, if I have to change fuel lines. Do they need to be metal or fuel rubber noses will be OK (even with E85 ethanol fuel) ?

Harry, if you make this level of power with a 52mm T/B, a 58mm one should be enough for my engine like Shadow wrote

For the fuel pump, is a Walbro one will be OK, if not what model do I need ?
 

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HP goal is an interesting question, for me was more of an evolutionary process, my plan is the cheapest way td (FWD) mid 11s street driven
if you ask a shop the counter is how much money do you have because that dictates parts and that drives boost and makes hp.

my original plan was to build a 2.5l cb (since 2.2 had a window), after reading further it seemed a popular upgrade was to go with a hybrid- 4v neon head (as i understand it, drastically increasing the VE ), then the bottom end limitations come into play... so the choice is 2.2/2.5 8v or 16v~350hp range, srt4 motor stock (300, with forged internals.. strap.. cam.. valves turbo 700hp) need to fab motor mounts... what about the trans.. not sure what a 568 will hold, but the t850's start breaking input shafts at 450tq (add $1750 for a liberty billet), and if you look at the fastest TD's a413's were consistently at the top (and they are CHEAP, $150 at pick n pull, $300 alto rebuild kit,$150 tq converter)... side note, srt4 top 50 time slips - manuals are getting much faster and auto's aren't improving as fast.. did i mention axles, DSS L5's are going to run $1500 (auto should be able to use stock)
 

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Discussion Starter #29
I agree about HP being linked with money.

I looked too about hybrid engines and even buy parts for it,being cheaper than going with the Lotus head but the hybrids cam gears are no longer made and I choose the TIII way.
In the first 2000 years you could hesitate between hybrids and srt-4, now srt-4 are the ways to go in term of budget, aftermarket parts available and maximum power at least in this side of the pond.

For the trans I have the choice, the shadows I have are all auto but for street drive, a manual trans may be better suited.
 

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did i mention axles, DSS L5's are going to run $1500 (auto should be able to use stock)

Going to tick some people off, but transmission selection should not determine axle selection.

If it's accepted that auto's can use stock axles, that says manuals can use them as well.

If your breaking axles in a manual, and you weren't in an auto, you need to adjust your driving accordingly ;)

Now, having said that, if you Can't make the adjustment, I guess you pay to play...…..
 

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For the trans I have the choice, the shadows I have are all auto but for street drive, a manual trans may be better suited.
For your build I would suggest the 568 you have. Auto with wrong converter and HE351 would be sucky to drive around vs rowing gears :)
 

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my plan is the cheapest way td (FWD) mid 11s street driven
My engine makes over 350whp at 24psi but I rarely use it.
I use my minimal boost setting to drive on the street. Why? Because I can't use the power. All it does is spin the tires and my car doesn't accelerate any faster in first or second gear and my second gear pulls hard to 70mph. I am using the Dunlop DIREZZA ZII STAR SPEC.

If you do have a plan for a mid 11s streen driven car, please share what tires you are planning to use.
 

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now i'm on studded snows since its my dd..
summer tires are bfgoodrich kdw.. 275 17, planning on nitto 555r
(corvette c4 rims with spacer/adapters for the 5x100 )



My engine makes over 350whp at 24psi but I rarely use it.
I use my minimal boost setting to drive on the street. Why? Because I can't use the power. All it does is spin the tires and my car doesn't accelerate any faster in first or second gear and my second gear pulls hard to 70mph. I am using the Dunlop DIREZZA ZII STAR SPEC.

If you do have a plan for a mid 11s streen driven car, please share what tires you are planning to use.
 

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i have a pile of snapped axles.. a vw guy was suggesting a clutch slipper.. seems there sock in lots of cars now (hellcat, bmw etc)

Going to tick some people off, but transmission selection should not determine axle selection.

If it's accepted that auto's can use stock axles, that says manuals can use them as well.

If your breaking axles in a manual, and you weren't in an auto, you need to adjust your driving accordingly ;)

Now, having said that, if you Can't make the adjustment, I guess you pay to play...…..
 

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When you build for 600 HP you start getting lag lol. Being nearly the same but faster spool you should run a 341 turbo. Same thing basically but will spool faster. Another choice being the GT ball bearing. A huge turbo at the track is wonderful. On the street on off switch power sucks. Turd then bam crazy power, then bam turd. A 341 is an easy swap back and forth with 351 and very unpopular making them cheap. 72 lb injectors at 43 psi base is what you want. Then lower the base a bit if you want. This allows a 255 pump to work. Plus 40s at 55 tax the pump, so you'll want the 340 lph. It's the pressure at boost that kills volume. Money no object get a smaller ball bearing like a GT3076R. If you want a Holset grab the 341. If you decide to push harder later the 351 will bolt on easy.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Thanks for these advices,
I would like to avoid spending more money if not needed as I still need (expensive) TIII parts to fix the head.

Does a ball bearing turbo reduces the lag significantly (ie that you really notice when driving, not only theory).

I will keep an eye for the 341, may be I can find a good deal.

What are +40 injectors flow's ?
Is there a reference fuel pressure when talking about injectors to compare ?
 

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People ask HP goals for sizing. The 341 will out breathe a +40 injector. A total bolt on S46 would use them. As far as the turbo types, a ball bearing turbo spins faster and can handle pressure better. But you can't rebuild one your self. The 341 is better for your current goal. If you decide for more later an easy swap. If you don't plan for more you want a smaller turbo so the lag is gone. Don't use a gigantic turbo that spools at 4k that you aren't using.
 

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Does a ball bearing turbo reduces the lag significantly (ie that you really notice when driving, not only theory).
Some say a cpl hun rpm, other say no difference, yet others say 500rpm. Bottom line, BB turbos will spool faster and give slightly better transient response IF you're comparing apples to apples. (ie. Exact, and I mean EXACT same turbine wheel, housings comp wheel ect ect)

Usually there are differences in the turbos being tested and IF for eg. the journal bearing turbo had larger A/R comp housing with lighter wheel and lighter turbine, that could make up the difference right there.

Run the right journal turbo config and all will be fine. BB counterpart would only be consideration if you wanted Everything out of it and were willing to pay the difference.


What are +40 injectors flow's ?
Is there a reference fuel pressure when talking about injectors to compare ?
Reference is usually 43-45 psi. +40's are usually 52-53lb inj's. They flow enough for 400WHP with supporting mods regardless of turbo size IF the cal is trimmed for proper fueling.

People ask HP goals for sizing. The 341 will out breathe a +40 injector. A total bolt on S46 would use them.
Just to clarify;

S46 can take the +40's to their max Maxing out the turbo 28-31psi boost.

Running a 341 or a 351 for that matter, below 25psi on an 8v with a cal trimmed for proper fueling at proper pressure the +40's are fine.

Start cranking the boost higher and you will run out of inj.
 

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I would suggest checking into it as per current date but garrett had a really good policy for rebuilding their duel ball bearing turbos

if you already had the complete turbo you could return the bad center section for a remanufactured one at a FRACTION of the cost of a new center section from one of their dealers
- like a $300 savings to be had by going directly back to garrett with manufacturer's warrenty too

and explains probably why I can't find a used one for sale , much less a used up one to have rebuilt
 
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