Turbo Dodge Forums banner

1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Car is having a rough time idling, and taking off under no boost. Issue is intermittent, but becoming more often. First it felt like it was a misfire under light acceleration, but now happening very often. I'm getting black smoke out the tail pipe when is sputters, and fouled a set of plugs the other day. At highway speeds, i can still see the black smoke puff when it hits it's sputter. car had all the ignition components replaced within the last 6 to 8 months. This includes distributor, plugs, wires, cap/rotor, and coil. Distributor P/U went bad 8 months ago, and was replaced in a similar discussion thread. Plugs were replaced yesterday, and i swapped out the extra distributor i have (thanks fellow TD'ers for suggesting i buy a spare) today to see if it fixed the issue. No luck. Car sputters here and there at idle, and bucks under light acceleration. Once the car is above 4 or 5 Lbs of boost, issue goes away. Once throttle comes back down, car is sputtering/bucking at anything under 1/4 throttle, including hiway speeds.

The sketchy side. When the motor was swapped, I was still using the 2.2 calibration, and only had +3% injectors for it. After reading several posts about DSM injectors being a viable alternative, i figured i'd try it. Bought a used set of 390 CC DSM injectors, which worked out to be similar to +40s from mopar. However, i'm still utilizing the stock FPR. I know i really need an adjustable, but this hasn't been an issue until september '10. Engine was dropped in Nov 2009.

I'm going to be picking up a fuel pressure tester today at work since i know NAJ will want my fuel pressure at the rail :D I wanted to get a thread rolling and see if anyone has any thoughts on this issue. Seems that the similar threads lately are dealing with cutting out before the throttle comes up, as to where mine is running fine under boost, hence me thinking it a too much fuel issue.

Also, vacuum according to auto meter gauge in car is 16-18" at idle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,394 Posts
dsm injectors are only +20's so it should still be in range for the o2's to be able to correct the pulsewidth, just taking a shot in the dark id say bad o2 or tps sensor, do you have a scanner to see whats going on with the computer and sensors ? if not you can test them with a multimeter but its a little more involved.
 
L

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
The MP +40s are actually anywhere from 450-550cc on a few sets I have seen that were tested.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
What computer is it using?
Stage 3 calibration from Mopar Performance. Is the same computer from when i purchased the car 4 years ago.

dsm injectors are only +20's so it should still be in range for the o2's to be able to correct the pulsewidth, just taking a shot in the dark id say bad o2 or tps sensor, do you have a scanner to see whats going on with the computer and sensors ? if not you can test them with a multimeter but its a little more involved.
I work at a parts store, but the scanner we have is only a code reader. I'm sure i could sweet talk a shop to plug it in next week.

After coming home today, the problem is getting worse fast. The car will barely hold an idle now, And smoking like a banshee when it bucks. My EGT's on the trip home at cruising speed were around 1K, when normally around 1100 at 65 MPH. Still runs fine under boost, but any where else it seems to hate life. I've wondered about it being a TPS or O2 sensor, but it isn't throwing any codes, which is why it leads me to the pressure regulator. It got too dark too fast, and wasn't able to hook the fuel pressure gauge up tonight, so it will come first thing in the morning.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,463 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
What injectors does the calibration call for?

What are the part numbers of the DSM injectors you are using?

Turbo dodge uses 4 bar fuel regulator while most car uses 3 bar.

390cc at 3 bar is 438cc at 4 bar.
Fuel Injector Calculator from WitchHunter Performance
I truly have no idea what the calibration calls for. when i purchased the car, it had a stage 3 calibration, but was still running stock injectors, which caused it to run lean. When i swapped over to the 2.5, one of the original injectors failed. I was able to pick up a set of 390cc injectors from a local car guy. They came out of a 91 turbo dsm to my knowledge.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
24,824 Posts
Black rich will be caused by Map Sensor circuit issues, high fuel pressure and in your case possibly and isue with injectors or calibration.
Verify what engine vacuum is at the Map.
Check fuel pressure, static, engine @ idle, engine under boost

Do you have the old injectors you could swap back in?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,463 Posts
I truly have no idea what the calibration calls for. when i purchased the car, it had a stage 3 calibration, but was still running stock injectors, which caused it to run lean. When i swapped over to the 2.5, one of the original injectors failed. I was able to pick up a set of 390cc injectors from a local car guy. They came out of a 91 turbo dsm to my knowledge.
Each calibration is made specifically to match the injectors and displacement. Going from TII injectors to 438cc is pretty big jump. FIND the part number of the injectors so you know what you have. Then call Cindy and have her burn you a calibration with your needs, or make your own.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Black rich will be caused by Map Sensor circuit issues, high fuel pressure and in your case possibly and isue with injectors or calibration.
Verify what engine vacuum is at the Map.
Check fuel pressure, static, engine @ idle, engine under boost

Do you have the old injectors you could swap back in?
Thanks for replying NAJ. I checked the fuel pressure this morning, 48Lbs at idle, surges to 54Lbs on rev, then comes back down within 2 seconds. Stayed steady other than that. After engine off, pressure remained constant for 15 minutes, so i think i'm safe from a leaky injector. I am not able to check my fuel pressure under boost/driving due to the hose only being a foot long on the tester. I do not have the old injectors, one tested bad, and i ditched the set (probably stupid on my part:bang head.) I'll grab a vacuum gauge at work today and test my vacuum at the map sensor. Also grab the numbers on the injectors.

I know i've needed a calibration for a while, and there isn't a 'good' excuse for that. The motor ran clear as a whistle until fall when i started having issues with the ignition system. I'm also wondering if a coil can cause this issue. I used a universal Accel super stock coil in the fall since i got it cheap. I've never had a coil go bad on me, so unsure of that issue.

Edit: B390L is the number off the injectors
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,463 Posts
The B390L flows around 41.71 lbs with a 4 bar regulator , very similar to "+20% injectors" used in turbo dodge.

Do you have a scan tool that you can check the car's sensor while the car is running?


Nothing wrong with the stock coil, people gone to 10's with the stock coil.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
I don't have a scan tool to run diagnostics, I'd have to run by a shop. Only thing we have is a code reader, and it's useless as far as my car is concerned.

When I checked fuel pressure this morning, I sprayed some throttle plate cleaner in the throttle body while engine off. Let it sit for a minute, then started the car and let idle while i sprayed a bit more in to clean it out. Funny thing about it is that when i drove to work, The car ran much better, almost like it had no problems what so ever. I bought a vacuum gauge, and spliced into the vacuum line just before the MAP sensor. At idle, car holds 20" vacuum at the MAP in the kick panel. Follows normally vacuum/boost, stays right with my pillar gauge as far as i can tell.

I'm starting to wonder if it's possibly the air charge temp sensor due to the response the car got from the throttle plate cleaner. It's been years since i've run anything down thru the intake. Maybe a sensor has some gunk in it :shrug: Ideas or thoughts?
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
24,824 Posts
Not that I think that the coil is the issue but which coil did you use, the 8140 or 8140M?
The 8140M is the correct coil for a Mopar, the other is a GM and the internal resistance is different.
After you sprayed carb cleaner and drove the car did the "black rich" condition go away?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,072 Posts
Have you checked all wire connectors at the Injectors? How about the grounds, especially the one on the back of the intake. This seems like an intermittent injector issue. Possible wiring issue with the injectors. Do you notice it any worse going over bumps or making turns? Have you ran codes to see if there are any present.

One other thing to check and this is really going off of a wim here, do you notice if your cooling fan is working and if it is, is it staying on all the time. This could also be a failing Coolant Temp Sensor. But first check codes and report back !!!!!!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Not that I think that the coil is the issue but which coil did you use, the 8140 or 8140M?
The 8140M is the correct coil for a Mopar, the other is a GM and the internal resistance is different.
After you sprayed carb cleaner and drove the car did the "black rich" condition go away?
8140, it's not the Mopar coil. I've got a stock replacement coil on the way for it. My old one is leaking, so I'm afraid to try it. Yes, the black rich went away. The drive home it started to hiccup a mile from the house, but not like it was before i sprayed down the throttle body.


Have you checked all wire connectors at the Injectors? How about the grounds, especially the one on the back of the intake. This seems like an intermittent injector issue. Possible wiring issue with the injectors. Do you notice it any worse going over bumps or making turns? Have you ran codes to see if there are any present.

One other thing to check and this is really going off of a wim here, do you notice if your cooling fan is working and if it is, is it staying on all the time. This could also be a failing Coolant Temp Sensor. But first check codes and report back !!!!!!!!
No codes. I am getting an intermittent speed/distance code every now and then. Grounds have all been checked. Injectors are all clipped in. In the fall when i had my cooling fan go dead, i discovered a bad chassis ground from the battery. my front motor mount is shot, haven't had time to put the poly mount in yet. so there may be a vibration issue there. bumps don't seem to affect it at all, or turns for that fact. my temp sender is working as far as i can tell, but on closer inspection, my radiator fan is dead again. It should come on when the temp sender is unplugged, and no go. I don't really have the light to go wire hunting tonight.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Can you find a P/N on the case? I've never heard of a 'Stage 3' from Mopar, except for the SRT...
P5249671 is the # off the computer. Replaced the Air charge Temp. sensor in the manifold today. Old one had lots of grime and junk on it, Looks like the original sensor. I'll find out on the way to work if it helped.

EDIT: So installing the new air charge sensor didn't do much, other than bring about some other codes which did not come up until today. Car still has miss, but is not smoking like it was the previous week. Idle is very sporadic now, which i'm assuming is due to the distance sensor. It will range from 1600 rpms or so, then drop low and die if you don't tap the throttle. Code 15 distance sensor has been intermittent, bought a new one that will be going in tomorrow. Code 22, Temp sensor Voltage out of range. The temp sensor seems to be working fine as far as the gauge goes, And was just replaced in October-Ordered as well. Code 35, Short in Cooling fan circuit. This really interests me. Had a bad ground in October, which had me replacing the cooling fan motor and temp sensor. Everything seemed to be working fine then winter hit, now it seems the issue never went away. Cooling fan does not turn on period, even when the temp sensor is unplugged from the harness.

To top it off, I pulled out my Multi-meter to find the battery in it has exploded, and left acid all over the insides. I'll have a new one tomorrow to trace wires on the fan circuit.

Any ideas/suggestions are very welcome at this point, I'm running out of ideas/patience. I'm hoping i can pull back the wire should and find a obvious bare wire, but i don't think I'll get that lucky. Another thought has me debating the power module. If I remember correctly, the cooling fan is controlled by the power module, not sure if the other sensors are on the module or not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Got a new multi-meter today and went to work tracing wires on my cooling fan circuit. Whats very interesting is that i'm only getting 9.1~9.0 volts to the fan. I pulled the wire loom apart at the next conector up the loom near the battery, and still only getting around 9 volts to the fan. This is a 12V fan is it not?? May explain why my fan isn't working. Checked all grounds, and everything appears to be grounded nicely.

I pulled a haynes repair manual today and started reading. I noticed that the power module controls the ignition system all together, as well as reducing 12 Volts down to 8 volts for some sensors. -->specifically the ones i'm getting codes for lately - distance sensor, and coolant temp sensor.

Anyone know how to test this thing(power module)? Should i invest in a reman? I replaced the last power module 18 months ago with one i purchased from a fellow TD'er.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
24,824 Posts
Some components use a 8-9 volt reference like the hall effect pickup.
Other sensors like the Map,TPS,CTS,ACT use a 5 volt reference.
If you are having a cooling fan issue your issue will be underhood, the controller only controls the ground side of the relay although the PM may supply voltage to 1/2 of the relay, I would have to check the wiring to be sure.
The power module which is the controller underhood does all the work and supplies power to high draw devices.
The logic module behind the R/S kick panel makes all the decisions and instructs the PM what to do.
Please refresh me on what your issues are.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Some components use a 8-9 volt reference like the hall effect pickup.
Other sensors like the Map,TPS,CTS,ACT use a 5 volt reference.
If you are having a cooling fan issue your issue will be underhood, the controller only controls the ground side of the relay although the PM may supply voltage to 1/2 of the relay, I would have to check the wiring to be sure.
The power module which is the controller underhood does all the work and supplies power to high draw devices.
The logic module behind the R/S kick panel makes all the decisions and instructs the PM what to do.
Please refresh me on what your issues are.
Current issues are
- getting a misfire. I have been replaced my whole ignition system in the last 6 months.
- was running so rich you'd see black smoke on the misfires. I'd describe it as if the distributor was missing or on it's way out.
- 3 codes - 15, 22, 35
- car no longer runs rich/smokes on the misfire, but miss is still very much there.
- temp sensor works on the gauge side.
- won't hold idle, revs high, then low and dies within 10 seconds.
- voltage on my fan circuit is 9 volts - should it be 12? cooling fan not working.
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top