Is my engine head warped ?

795 Views 17 Replies 4 Participants Last post by ArmandHammer, 15 d ago

ArmandHammer

Discussion Starter · 2 mo ago (Edited)

2

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Question about head warpage.
In the picture above, this is a 87 Shelby Z engine. I thiink I have an OEM headgasket and it may be the original 35 year old gasket. While removing all the oriiginal clamps there was no indication of anything unusual, evertyhing was old OEM and didn't look touched or turned. Based on this I think the head in my car probably has never been taken off having true original 86k miles odometer on the car.
While taking the head bolts off they did not seem to be even 65 ft-lbs tight. I first turned them all a 1/4 turn loose in the proper reverse order. Then again all a 1/4 turn and they seemed to be loose only finger tight and could be removed easily.
There were no cracks on the head.
The only areas on the head that I could find warpage was a tight .002 gap between cylinders 1 and 2. On cylinder #1 measured .003 around the outer edge around the 7 and 11 oclock area (lookiing from the front of the car). Using a .004 feeler gauge would not go thru. Also in the picture above you can see the head gasket deformed in those areas. I plan to use a FEL-PRO 9296 PT headgasket and new Fel-Pro bolts.
Questions 1: Should I resurface the head or do you think the Fel-pro gasket can accomadate that much warpage.
Question 2: Should I use copper spray on the head gasket during install on both sides?
Any other tips.
Thank you in advance to the TD community.

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ArmandHammer

Discussion Starter · #2 · 2 mo ago (Edited)

Well had to finally do it and asked my computer, my son set up a AI program on my computer.

I asked :
What is allowable warpage on a 1987 Dodge Daytona Shelby Z 2.2 liter turbocharged engine head?
It answered:
According to the 1987 Dodge Daytona Shelby Z 2.2 liter turbocharged engine service manual, the allowable warpage for the cylinder head is 0.003 inches (0.0762 mm) maximum.

Scary my computer seems to know everything, but I guess it also depends on the type of headgasket you are using. Does anyone have other ideas or is this correct?

ArmandHammer

Discussion Starter · #3 · 2 mo ago

I also asked my computer about engine issues on a 1987 Dodge Daytona Shelby Z.

It answered:
The turbocharged 2.2-liter engine in the Shelby Z is known to have some reliability issues, particularly with the turbocharger and the head gasket. Common symptoms of engine problems include overheating, loss of power, and oil leaks.

See how it knows everything...all the symptoms I am experiencing and that is why I started to tear into the engine of my car.

NAJ

· #4 · 2 mo ago

3

You are not allowed any more than .004" variance on the head and deck surface.
We use a Snap-On straight edge to check flatness.

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When cleaning the head/deck surface Do Not use the 3M Roloc Reconditioning Discs, use the 3M Bristle Discs.
The Roloc Reconditioning Discs will leave minute particles in the engine that will destroy the bearings in short time.
YES

NO

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ArmandHammer

Discussion Starter · #5 · 2 mo ago

Thank you for showing me the Chrysler Service manual page, that the spec for our cylinder heads have to be .004" and the clenaing tips. This helps a lot.
This goes to show you that you cannot always blindly believe everything on the internet or on your AI computer program and that checking the facts is important.

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arieskcar

· #6 · 2 mo ago

6

Gonna get flamed but I used this and got the head perfectly flat.

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Perfectly flat ceramic tile
Sandpaper
Spray glue

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Headgasket was badly blown.

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After cleanup discovered critical cracks

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Head was scrapped

Used head was Resurfaced same way not even the .0018 feeler gauge would fit anywhere under a straight edge.

Still daily driven no headgasket issues. This winter had to switch to a 195° super stant since the 192° Hi flow wouldn't let it warm up.

Be careful with the Fel-Pro there are 3 versions. U want the reinforced one.

DO NOT BUY THE $5 ROCKAUTO GASKET

I got burned with the crappy weak Fel-Pro

Here's the 3 Fel-Pro and the Apex I use.

Top is best Fel-Pro
Middle is trash
3rd is missing the corner reinforcement
bottom is Apex AHG1100

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I go Apex but the decision is yours

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ArmandHammer

Discussion Starter · #7 · 2 mo ago

Good advice,
Thanks Arieskcar for the pictures and the warning about the different Fel-Pro headgaskets. I guess I'll order it from Amazon, since it is free returns. I can compare what I get and return it if not good.

ArmandHammer

Discussion Starter · #8 · 2 mo ago

Amazon has your "best" FEL-PRO 9296 PT head gasket with the corner reinforcement. It was shipped and sold by Amazon for $18, so Amazon has the good ones.
I'm going to clean the head and block using the 3M Bristle Discs (thanks NAJ for the tip) and risk being .003" out on the edge of Cylinder #1 and see what happens. I'm going to tighten the new headbolts with the 45-65-65+ 1/4 turn technique. Not going to use the copper spray. Should I recheck after warm up to make sure they are all at 90 ft-lbs? Any other advice about cylinder #1?

arieskcar

· #9 · 2 mo ago

ArmandHammer said:
Amazon has your "best" FEL-PRO 9296 PT head gasket with the corner reinforcement. It was shipped and sold by Amazon for $18, so Amazon has the good ones.
I'm going to clean the head and block using the 3M Bristle Discs (thanks NAJ for the tip) and risk being .003" out on the edge of Cylinder #1 and see what happens. I'm going to tighten the new headbolts with the 45-65-65+ 1/4 turn technique. Not going to use the copper spray. Should I recheck after warm up to make sure they are all at 90 ft-lbs? Any other advice about cylinder #1?

The Fel-Pro is kind of hard. I would go Apex if it's not gonna be flat. Up to u. Apex fat fire ring vs Fel-Pro clip reinforcement.

I think you're supposed to use the white one for the aluminum and the green one for the block but I would look it up see which 3m disks u need. Also they need a special chuck.

I stopped using them a long time ago I just use a piece of ceramic tile with sandpaper so it's perfectly flat.

I used the white 3M Bristle disk on this head and ran the car for about 2 years on the Apex gasket it had no leaks. Car got scrapped. It was on a 2.5 T1. The gasket is still on the head in the pic

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Before the Winter started I cleaned up that head with a razor blade and used a fel-pro gasket on this car. I still have yet to drive it though I just need to get the oil lines for the Turbo setup.

I think the Fel-Pro gasket is holding up....

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ArmandHammer

Discussion Starter · #10 · 2 mo ago (Edited)

In case someone wants to know the difference between the Fel-Pro headgskets they have a verison # on them on the face side on the left side next to cylinder # 1 right above headbolt#2 hole. There is an "R" letter and then a number. (if you zoom into the picture you can see it)
The best one is the latest version has R5 stamped on it with the corner reinforcement.
Version 4 with R4 stamp is the one without the corner reinforcement
I'm not sure which version is the crappy one in the NAPA packaging.
See picture below

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arieskcar

· #11 · 2 mo ago

ArmandHammer said:
In case someone wants to know the difference between the Fel-Pro headgskets they have a verison # on them on the face side on the left side next to cylinder # 1 right above headbolt#2 hole. There is an "R" letter and then a number. (if you zoom into the picture you can see it)

The best one is the latest version has R5 stamped on it with the corner reinforcement.

Version 4 with R4 stamp is the one without the corner reinforcement

I'm not sure which version is the crappy one in the NAPA packaging.

See picture below

Damn never noticed the R5 thing. Good catch.

Much easier to explain I need the R5 gasket than trying to explain what that clip is on the corner of cylinder 1 and 4.

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ArmandHammer

Discussion Starter · #12 · 2 mo ago

arieskcar said:
Damn never noticed the R5 thing. Good catch.

Much easier to explain I need the R5 gasket than trying to explain what that clip is on the corner of cylinder 1 and 4.

I have both the R4 and R5 FelPros that is how I could compare. Thanks for sharing your pictures. Looking at your Apex gasket it does look better than the FelPro because it seems to have a wider bead around each cylinder and hence probably are more reinforced and not need to have that extra reinfocement on cylinders #1 and #4.
The reinforcement on the FelPro R5 seems to be more of a band-aid type approach to get more reinforcement.
My 35 year old Chrysler OEM gasket failed and deformed at cylinder #1 right where that reinforcement is.
My next gasket will be the Apex but hopefully I won't need another one for a while.

Also that Napa packaged Felpro in yor pictures does not look like any of the FelPros I have. The backing should be metallic and that one does not look like it and has even a thinner mettalic rim between each cylinder. I would never put that on a turbo engine.

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arieskcar

· #13 · 2 mo ago

ArmandHammer said:
I have both the R4 and R5 FelPros that is how I could compare. Thanks for sharing your pictures. Looking at your Apex gasket it does look better than the FelPro because it seems to have a wider bead around each cylinder and hence probably are more reinforced and not need to have that extra reinfocement on cylinders #1 and #4.
The reinforcement on the FelPro R5 seems to be more of a band-aid type approach to get more reinforcement.
My 35 year old Chrysler OEM gasket failed and deformed at cylinder #1 right where that reinforcement is.
My next gasket will be the Apex but hopefully I won't need another one for a while.

Also that Napa packaged Felpro in yor pictures does not look like any of the FelPros I have. The backing should be metallic and that one does not look like it and has even a thinner mettalic rim between each cylinder. I would never put that on a turbo engine.

That Napa gasket and the other 2 fel-pro gaskets were all the $5 FelPro option from rock auto that's why I tell everyone don't do the $5 wholesale option they're just gonna give you a bunch of old gaskets. Even the good R5 gasket was actually bent in the corner but I still use it anyways on a project.

I don't like the Mopar performance gasket at all it did this on a 20PSI 2.5 I see why fel-pro put the reinforcements where they did.

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I'll stick with Apex

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ArmandHammer

Discussion Starter · #14 · 1 mo ago (Edited)

Thanks for sharing your pictures.
You are right those Rock Auto "wholesale" FelPro gaskets are a mixed bag of old gaskets laying around they must have gotten from various stores. When I purchased the Shelby last Novemeber I knew I would need a head gasket and ordered many parts from Rock Auto to save on shipping. That was a big mistake. What I received was a dried out old FelPro R4 (version 4) headgasket, which I did not know at that time. When you shared your different FelPro pictures I ordered a new one from Amazon and I could compare the two gaskets. The new fresh FelPro was tackier and had the reinfordment corners. I sitll believe your Apex "fat ring" may be the best one.
It seems that all these gaskets fail at cylinders #1 and #4 near the triangular water jacket even the MOPAR performance headgasket. Now I understand why FelPro R5 (version5) reinforced those corners.
Thanks

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NAJ

· #15 · 1 mo ago

This was my Mopar Performance headgasket bought online after 6,000 miles of use.

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ArmandHammer

Discussion Starter · #16 · 16 d ago (Edited)

After replacing the head gasket, power steering pump and hoses, starter, all coolant hoses, belts, spark plugs, wires and ditributor cap, last weekend we started putting everything back together again and ran the car. We watched the fan come on and off, then drove it about 10 easy miles without overheating. No leaks yet and everything seems to be running fine. We have not taken it out on the highway yet. Even the 35 year old AC compressor is working, blowing cold air. Someone must have repaired the AC system in the last 3 years, because the person I got the car from didn't. I've never seen a Chrysler compressor last 35 years.

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Glhs60

· #17 · 15 d ago

Chrysler engineer Dave Zelkowsky once told us to retorque after a couple of heat cycles.

He said he tried to get Chrysler to recommend retorquing but they declined.

Also, he recommended 95 lbs but 90 lbs the 4 corners

Thanks
Randy

Reactions: 1

ArmandHammer

Discussion Starter · #18 · 15 d ago (Edited)

Glhs60 said:
Chrysler engineer Dave Zelkowsky once told us to retorque after a couple of heat cycles.

He said he tried to get Chrysler to recommend retorquing but they declined.

Also, he recommended 95 lbs but 90 lbs the 4 corners

Thanks
Randy

Thanks for the tip, when installing followed the Chrysler procedure with a calibrated torque wrench. For the final 1/4 turn I set the torque wrench to 100-ft lb and all clicked consistently just before 90 degrees. Then I went around to check if they were all 90 ft-lb and they were. I might do what you say but hate to take off the perfect nonleaking valvecover gasket.

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