My alky injection plans....

2942 Views 26 Replies 7 Participants Last post by Frank, Jun 10, 2005

Frank

Discussion Starter · May 24, 2005

Myself and Brian were doing some discussions on a cheap progressive setup, and here is what I have come up with for my setup. I wanted a setup that is predictable in its mixture since you want to target an A/F through out the RPM range so there is no rich or lean points.

Mixture:
Any combination of Ethyl Alcohol (Ethanol) and water. Pure Ethanol is non corrosive to aluminum when kept below its boiling point of 78.5 celcius, or 173.3 fahrenheit. Commerical grade Ethanol has even higher boiling point since it has chemicals in it to make it non-drinkable. Adding water increases its boiling point and reduces corrosion. This is key for injection before the port or even the port. I would like to investigate injection before and after the intercooler. But this is good to know for the intake, throttle body, and head. Now I just need to make sure of any effects on epoxy.

Injection:
At full power potential, it would be nice to be at 20% ethanol (assuming pure). That is alot of flow. Ethanol weights 6.59lbs per gallon. So rates given in gpm are multiplied by 6.59lbs/gall to give me lbs/min. The easiest to use is misting nozzles form McMaster-Carr and come in a variety of spray angles and flow rates. Both the Brass and Stainless wont corrode. The only issues is how the flow is effected over a pressure change. It would be ideal to match the flow changes of injectors similar to our +40 (52lb/hr) injectors. If they dont match well, I would need to couple the PW from both injector drivers to drive two injectors, whose flow would match a 52lb/hr injector.

Pressure Control and Pump:
The pump would be controlled by a switch. The pressure would be controlled by an Aeromotive Adjustable FPR which is alcohol compatable. This would allow me to match the pressure of the fuel rail and in turn match flow rates and in turn mixture. If misting nozzles are used, a solenoid directly before the nozzles will be needed to keep from syphoning. If injectors are used, this is not needed.

Brian has is own way, but similar.

Frank

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Aries_Turbo

· #2 · May 24, 2005

Sounds like a plan... I think im going to use the stock turbo pump and some cold starts like carl did originally though. I was gonna be complicated but Im going back to simple.

ill prolly vary Saab and VW cold starts so that I make sure I dont flood out the car.

Carl, any problems with the pump yet?

Brian

neon_steve

· #3 · May 24, 2005

now why are you guys using ethanol instead of methanol? just curious.. Is methanol the more corrosive one? I was thinking it was less..

Aries_Turbo

· #4 · May 24, 2005

methanol is the more corrosive one. plus you can pick up SLX Denatured Ethanol at Walmart when you need it.

Brian

Frank

Discussion Starter · #5 · May 25, 2005

These injector ratings are common for our cars and are a good reference point for determining mass flow of fuel and ethanol into the engine to determine exact target of air to fuel ratio. Since working in convient numbers is nice, I would do 4 +40's of fuel, and 1 mister of the equivelent profile and flow rate. The 20psi, 40psi, and 100psi are extrapulated using the equation:
new_flow = sqrt (new_pressure * rate_flow^2 / rate_pressure^2)

Code:

		20psi	40psi	55psi	100psi
			
Mopar +40's	31.36	44.35	52.00	70.12
Mopar +20's	25.33	35.82	42.00	56.63
Generalized T2	19.90	28.14	33.00	44.50
Generalized T1	16.28	23.03	27.00	36.41

These misters from McMaster-Carr look closest to the fuel injector equivelent of 72lb/hr, 52lb/hr, T2's, and T1's. The rates on the website is given in gph, so a simple multiplication of 6.59lbs of ethanol per gallon gives you the lb/hr unit, which is shared with our injectors. The 20psi and 55psi are extrapulated using the equation:
new_flow = sqrt (new_pressure * rate_flow^2 / rate_pressure^2)

Code:

				20psi	40psi	55psi	100psi
Hollow Cone (160*) 3178K67	44.22	62.54	73.33	98.85
Hollow Cone (160*) 3178K66	32.43	45.87	53.78	72.49
Hollow Cone (160*) 3178K65	20.64	29.19	34.23	46.13
Hollow Cone (160*) 3178K64	14.73	20.82	24.42	32.95

The only problem with the misters is they claim an operating pressure of 40-100psi. This means that I will get drastically ethanol rich conditions before I achieve the flow desired because this idea is based on using similar setup to the fuel setup. Well what about solenoids to pulse the T-ed off fuel that goes from the pump to the regulator? I could create a simple driver for the coil that uses the injector signal as a trigger. Unfortunetly, this is more expensive then I believed. There is a Holley/NOS alky compatable solenoid for $125 and I cant find information on what is the maximum frequency of the valve and duty cyle without overheating it.

This means I need to use an alky compatable injector. I would love to have just one 52lb/hr alky injector, or two at around half that and mess with the pressure for a closer fuel curve. I will still need to do an injector driver, but that is not hard at all.

On another note, cars in Brazil have been running heavily blended ethanol fuels. What injectors do they use, and what kind of cars?

Frank

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Aries_Turbo

· #6 · May 25, 2005

NY winter gas has 10% ethanol in it anyway... i dont think ethanol would kill a regular 52pph injector.

Brian

Frank

Discussion Starter · #7 · May 25, 2005

So $35 52lb/hr injector, $110 for the Aeromotive AFPR that is alky compatable, $60 between transitors, resistors, lines, fitting adapters, and free stock fuel pump. That is $205 for a completely self tuned ethanol injection kit.

I think its pretty kick butt for a very non rigged setup... and its simple! I will need to adjust the pressure regulator to compensate for the weight of ethanol over fuel to hit 52lb/hr flow rate. My cut off switch will be installed inline of the injector driver's power. What is even better, is if you mix ethanol with water, you know the weight of water and ethanol, and can adjust the pressure accordingly!!!!!

Frank

Aries_Turbo

· #8 · May 25, 2005

one addition... when the throttle is closed, shut off the alky injector driver.

Brian

Frank

Discussion Starter · #9 · May 25, 2005

Thats cake... that and the switch can be tied into the alky injector driver. I can even make it so I have to have significant throttle for it to work.

Frank

Aries_Turbo

· #10 · May 25, 2005

yup. sounds like a plan... now are you going to drop your fuel pressure to get an 80/20 mix? thing with that is, will it idle well with the throttle closed, 80%gas, no alky?

Brian

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Frank

Discussion Starter · #11 · May 25, 2005

Good point. I think it should idle ok. 80% fuel at that duty cyle and pressure is not alot. I will have to definently use a scanner for knock and get a WB-O2 gauge setup. The amount of advancement in timing will be nice.

According to my latest reading in Heywood's book, the addition of methanol doesnt change much in the efficency of the combustion, however the reduction in temperature of air is huge. The BTU's removed from the air by the evaporation of methanol will allow for significant reduction in knock and higher potential of the fuel mixture... specific energy? I might try building it before SDAC-15 to try out there. It shouldnt change my calibration setup because I would reduce the regular fuel pressure... it would just let me run it safely and more aggressively with manual timing advance.

Maybe I will see if the dual tables if both fuel and spark. This could get interesting.

Frank

Aries_Turbo

· #12 · May 25, 2005

yeah youll have to test a little.

Im just going to add a little bit of alky here and there to keep the knock down at high boost on pump gas. im not going to replace all kinds fuel with it though i may drop my fuel pressure a psi or 2.

Brian

DblTrbl

· #13 · May 25, 2005

Aries_Turbo said:
Carl, any problems with the pump yet?

Brian

Nope, same used stock T1 pump for the last two years with SLX Alky.

DblTrbl

· #14 · May 25, 2005

Sounds very cool. Always nice to see DIY stuff with Turbo Dodge.

Frank said:
Pressure Control and Pump:
The pump would be controlled by a switch. The pressure would be controlled by an Aeromotive Adjustable FPR which is alcohol compatable. This would allow me to match the pressure of the fuel rail and in turn match flow rates and in turn mixture. Frank

My reasoning for full on or full off is because I really dont drive much between 12 PSI and full boost. Once boost is up to 12 psi, where the alky comes on, it's only a split second before it's at full boost (24 to 29PSI depending on the race). The A/F adjustment is done in the SMEC by reducing gasoline.

Frank said:
If misting nozzles are used, a solenoid directly before the nozzles will be needed to keep from syphoning. If injectors are used, this is not needed.

Frank

That's true. Instead of an anti siphoning solenoid, I went the KISS route this time around and built an in line anti siphon ball valve, almost exactly like a grainger valve. It's set to push the ball off the seat at 30PSI of fuel pressure.

Aries_Turbo

· #15 · May 25, 2005

yeah Frank, cant wait to see the results.

Yeah its cold starts for me.

Carl, where did you get your alky gascan? any way of measuring how much is in the tank and/or a light that comes on when it gets low or something?

Brian

Frank

Discussion Starter · #16 · May 25, 2005

DblTrbl said:
My reasoning for full on or full off is because I really dont drive much between 12 PSI and full boost. Once boost is up to 12 psi, where the alky comes on, it's only a split second before it's at full boost (24 to 29PSI depending on the race). The A/F adjustment is done in the SMEC by reducing gasoline.

Well as an example, 20psi at 4000rpms and 20psi at 5000rpms is quite different. There is a significantly more airflow and that requires more fuel. You can't be stoich at both those points. I hope to get this thing built real soon.

The only thing is that I need to figure out which wideband O2 gauge to use or multimeter. I could just use the narrowband and tap in a small meter to measure voltage.

Frank

DblTrbl

· #17 · May 25, 2005

Frank said:
Well as an example, 20psi at 4000rpms and 20psi at 5000rpms is quite different. There is a significantly more airflow and that requires more fuel. You can't be stoich at both those points. I hope to get this thing built real soon.
Frank

Yep, I agree.

Logs of my wideband show A/F (at 29psi boost) goes from 12.2 at 4000 to 11.5 at 5200. The amount of alcohol is the same but the gasoline amount increased.

Frank

Discussion Starter · #18 · May 25, 2005

Ahh, so its a case of I dont really care.

hehehehe

TRRBOJEEP

· #19 · May 27, 2005

DblTrbl said:
My reasoning for full on or full off is because I really dont drive much between 12 PSI and full boost

+1... I kinda felt the same way... makes setting it up a lot simpler. (we're just lazzier than you Frank) LOL

But, your setup sounds like a good one!

Alcohol Rocks... you're gonna love it! :thumb:

Frank

Discussion Starter · #20 · May 27, 2005

Actually I am a lazzy piece, however when it comes to tuning, I am trying to take a step up above my normal life.

Now I have to get the car running properly first! hehehehe

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