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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
Multiple posts have been made since you sent me the results from your diagnostics in Post #29, I am ignoring/not reading any of those posts or listening to any other ideas until these two things are corrected/repaired.
1)Battery Voltage
NAJ, Aug 4:
Again, just to verify, there is constant battery voltage at the + coil when cranking?
If there is you do not have a HEP issue.
Not full battery voltage, no. 9.3 to 9.5V
I think we have ruled out the HEP.

a)What is battery voltage at the + coil with the ASD Relay manually actuated with the KOEO? (Key On, Engine Off)
If it is above 12 volts then proceed to step 2, if it is not, continue with step 1.
The engine controller needs a minimum of 10 volts to function properly, 9.3-9.6 volts is NOT acceptable.
The battery needs to be fully charged and tested under load to be sure it is good, static battery voltage has to be in the 12.4-12.6 range and no lower than 9.6 volts cranking (starter draw).
If the battery voltage is within the correct range of 12.50 volts across the battery terminals (and battery posts, check both ways to be sure there is not excessive resistance between the battery terminals and battery posts.) but you only have 9.5 volts at the + coil with the ASD manually actuated then you have excessive resistance in the ASD output circuit or a short in the ASD output circuit to another circuit that is drawing away voltage.
Until you get proper battery voltage at the battery itself and then proper voltage at the + coil with the ASD manually actuated you CANNOT proceed any further.

2)Ignition Coil

NAJ, Aug 4:
If you have battery voltage at the + coil with the ASD relay manually actuated and you touch/remove the jumper from a known good ground and there is no spark from the coil secondary wire to ground then the coil is faulty or the coil secondary wire is open or has excessive resistance.
No spark. I have tried two coils and the secondary coil wire seems to be fine with about 502 ohms per in of resistance.
a)If you have proper voltage (Minimum 12 volts) at the + coil with the ASD Relay manually actuated and you make and break the connection to the - coil and there is no spark from the secondary coil wire to ground then that coil is faulty or you did something wrong.
If you cannot get 12 volts to the + coil with the ASD manually actuated you can remove both wires from the coil, connect another 12 volt power source to the + coil and make/break the - coil connection to see if it makes a difference.
View attachment 282213
Until these two things are corrected you cannot proceed further.
I am only getting 11.4V at the + terminal of the coil when ASD is manually actuated (jumped between red and bk/gn wire). The battery is 12.8 at the posts and all the way to the killswitch. (Battery relocated to trunk a long time ago and killswitch installed in the car.)
I went ahead to step 2. There is a spark from the - post of the coil to ground.
 

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"There is a spark from the - post of the coil to ground."

You will get a small spark at the coil - terminal each time you make/break the connection, what you are looking for is spark from the coil secondary wire to ground each time you break the connection at the - coil terminal.
I find it easier to use a jumper wire and make/break the connection at the - battery terminal rather than at the - coil terminal itself.


I do not like that you are losing 1.4 volts from the kill switch to the coil + terminal.
Without manually actuating the ASD Relay, with the key on/engine off what is voltage reading at the ASD Relay connector Red and Dark Blue wires?
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
"There is a spark from the - post of the coil to ground."

You will get a small spark at the coil - terminal each time you make/break the connection, what you are looking for is spark from the coil secondary wire to ground each time you break the connection at the - coil terminal.
I find it easier to use a jumper wire and make/break the connection at the - battery terminal rather than at the - coil terminal itself.


I do not like that you are losing 1.4 volts from the kill switch to the coil + terminal.
Without manually actuating the ASD Relay, with the key on/engine off what is voltage reading at the ASD Relay connector Red and Dark Blue wires?
Apologies, NAJ. I missed the note on the secondary coil wire. When testing as you clarified a moment ago, no spark.

I am getting 12.5V on the red wire at the ASD And 12.05V on the blue wire.
 

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Will you let me buy one with bad wires so I can see if a repair can be done? Very least take a top off and look inside.
If the HEP can be disassembled without damage and if the wires aren't molded in place then yes, it can be repaired.
I don't think the Black and grey connectors can be repaired though.
Usually it's the HEP end where the wire damage occurs.
If the black and grey connectors are bad, they can be replaced using a 3-pin round shell connector as long as it can withstand the heat and the voltage levels.
Both ends would have to be replaced (HEP side and harness side).
 
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We are on page 3 with this issue, lets get back to the beginning/basics, before we get in so deep "we cannot see the forest for the trees".
This page and the questions asked will get us up to speed on where we stand so we can proceed further knowing the basics have been checked and verified and we do not have to scroll through 3 pages to find the answers.
1)You have a cranks but will not start condition and have no spark?
Yes/No

2)
You have a Code 54 set in memory?
Yes/No If Yes, continue
a)
After clearing the codes, verifying the codes did clear and cranking the engine for 7-10 seconds did the Code 54 return?
Yes/No If Yes, continue
b)
You ran the diagnostics for Code 54 (in post 25) and the end conclusion was?
c)You tried a "known good" HEP and the result was?
d)You verified the shutter wheel in the distributor was secure.
Yes/No
e)
You verified that you have the correct distributor for a turbo car?
Yes/No
f)
Are there any aftermarket accessories underhood that could be causing electrical interference/electrical noise or that could possibly be inducing a small voltage into another circuit? (Higher voltage harness's not properly shielded or running parallel to each other, Sound Systems, Security Alarm, Remote Start, etc.)
Yes/No

3)
You ran the No Start diagnostics from the FSM (in post 25) and the end conclusion was?

4)You also checked closed throttle TPS voltage but you were not exactly sure about how to check.
(closed throttle voltage above 2.50 volts = clear flood mode which = no fuel)
a)With the KOEO use your digital voltmeter to backprobe the VT/WT wire of the TPS connector, does the meter read 5 volts (4.90 is OK).
Yes/No If Yes, continue
b)
Using your digital voltmeter backprobe the OR/DB and BK/LB wires, voltage should read between .30 and .90 volts?
c)Is TPS closed throttle voltage within specs?
Yes/No
Font Line Rectangle Parallel Pattern


5)
You verified all power feeds into and out of the controller all have the correct voltage?
a)SMEC 14 Pin Connector
Cavity 1 - 8 volt output
Cavity 3 - 12 volt output
Cavity 4 - 12 volt input
b)SMEC 60 Pin Connector
Cavity 12 - 12 volt input
Cavity 13 - 5 volt output
Cavity 52 - 8 volt input
c)Do all controller power feeds have the correct voltage?
Yes/No

6)
You verified all controller ground circuits have < 5 ohms resistance to ground?
a)SMEC 14 Pin Connector
Cavities 2, 6, 7
b)SMEC 60 Pin Connector
Cavities 4, 5, 15, 16
c)Do all controller ground circuits have < 5 ohms resistance to ground?
Yes/No
Rectangle Font Parallel Number Pattern
Font Material property Parallel Number Document
Font Parallel Number Circle Rectangle
 

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Reading all this gave me some inspiration to get #0325 running.
Going to finally start when I get back in mid September.
The checklist NAJ provided is systematic and thorough and with all the other advice and comments I should get it started.
I know it's something stupid because it was running fine originally.
First thing will be to drain the tank, replace the fuel filter which is probably clogged or water saturated, and add some Shell V-Power Nitro+
If it's something as simple as a clogged fuel filter, I'm going to kick myself!
 

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So....in my post above I said that it was probably something simple as to why my car won't start and idle.
I had lost the ignition coil condenser (Capacitor) and when I did find it, I thought it was only for radio noise suppression.
Is there any possibility that not having this connected between the Coil positive and ground would cause problems in the ignition system?
 

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So....in my post above I said that it was probably something simple as to why my car won't start and idle.
I had lost the ignition coil condenser (Capacitor) and when I did find it, I thought it was only for radio noise suppression.
Is there any possibility that not having this connected between the Coil positive and ground would cause problems in the ignition system?
Not likely, those are often not installed. I know I’ve never had one on my 89’, non issue.
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
All,

Apologies for the delay in responses. My job requires a lot of travel during the week, so I only get a few opportunities a week time to spend enough time on the car to really dive into it. Anyway, I agree that a good summary is in order; So thank you NAJ for putting this together.



Here are my responses:

1)You have a cranks but will not start condition and have no spark?
Yes.

2)
You have a Code 54 set in memory?
Yes.
Code 23 and 54

a)
After clearing the codes, verifying the codes did clear and cranking the engine for 7-10 seconds did the Code 54 return?
Yes
b)
You ran the diagnostics for Code 54 (in post 25) and the end conclusion was?
Yes. (Ref: Posts 29 and 31)

1)Is there a factory or aftermarket alarm system in this vehicle?
No
2)Is TPS closed throttle voltage below 2.50 volts?
Voltage across VT/WT & OR/DB was <1V, across VT/WT & BK/LB was ~4.9V, and across OR/DB & BK/LB was also ~4.9V.

3)Do all controller grounds have less than 5 ohms resistance to ground?
Yes:

Pin 1 - 5, 0.3 Ohms
Pin 1 - 15, 0.4 Ohms
Pin 1 - 16, 0.4 Ohms
Pin 2 - 2, 0.3 Ohms
Pin 2 - 6, 0.3 Ohms
Pin 2 - 7, 0.3 Ohms


c)
You tried a "known good" HEP and the result was?
Same

d)Y
ou verified the shutter wheel in the distributor was secure.
Yes

e)
You verified that you have the correct distributor for a turbo car?
No. It’s the one that O’Reilley’s sold me. I ASSUME it’s the right one for a turbocar, but they’ve given me TBI car parts before. How would I know the difference? Is there any distinctive difference between the two?

f)
Are there any aftermarket accessories underhood that could be causing electrical interference/electrical noise or that could possibly be inducing a small voltage into another circuit? (Higher voltage harness's not properly shielded or running parallel to each other, Sound Systems, Security Alarm, Remote Start, etc.)
No*
*The only thing would be the aftermarket radiator fan. HOWEVER, I long ago disconnected it to minimize that as a potential fault.

3)
You ran the No Start diagnostics from the FSM (in post 25) and the end conclusion was?
Yes. Notes in post 31.
Same results.


4)
You also checked closed throttle TPS voltage but you were not exactly sure about how to check.
(closed throttle voltage above 2.50 volts = clear flood mode which = no fuel)
a)With the KOEO use your digital voltmeter to backprobe the VT/WT wire of the TPS connector, does the meter read 5 volts (4.90 is OK).
All wires, except the one going to the coil (gn/bk) which has zero and the red one from the battery which has 12.6, have 11.9 to 12V

b)
Using your digital voltmeter backprobe the OR/DB and BK/LB wires, voltage should read between .30 and .90 volts?
OR/DB 0.6 – 0.7V
VT/WT 5V
BK/LB 0.01V

c)
Is TPS closed throttle voltage within specs?
No

5)
You verified all power feeds into and out of the controller all have the correct voltage?
a)SMEC 14 Pin Connector
Checked with KOEO
Cavity 1 - 8 volt output; 7.3V
Cavity 3 - 12 volt output; 0V
Cavity 4 - 12 volt input; 12.2V

b)
SMEC 60 Pin Connector
Cavity 12 - 12 volt input; 0V
Cavity 13 - 5 volt output; 7.7V
Cavity 52 - 8 volt input; 7.3V


c)
Do all controller power feeds have the correct voltage?
No

6)
You verified all controller ground circuits have < 5 ohms resistance to ground?
a)SMEC 14 Pin Connector
Cavities 2, 6, 7
All 0.5 Ohms or less

b)
SMEC 60 Pin Connector
Cavities 4 (>10k ohms), 5 (0.3 ohms), 15 (0.6 ohms), 16 .5 (0.5 ohms)
(Cavity 4 is "Signal Return")


c)
Do all controller ground circuits have < 5 ohms resistance to ground?
No
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
Okay, so some real progress here.....

I installed the correct distributor I picked up this morning and cranked it up. Immediately, I got a pretty good backfire but no start. As I cranked it, you can hear the chugging and popping like it is trying to start. Next, I popped off the coil secondary wire and was able to see a good spark to ground. Also, code 54 is now GONE. I only have code 23 remaining.

So, the no-spark situation seems to be solved by replacing the TBI distributor with a Turbo distributor. (I KNOW I bought the right one. I also have a habit of looking at the old parts vs the new parts, and somehow missed this window on the shutter wheel.....thank you!)

It's still not running, but at least this is checked off.
 

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Posy 47, Question 2e. "You verified that you have the correct distributor for a turbo car? "

Are the spark plugs fouled and/or is the oil fuel diluted?
Exactly he said not sure, hence the picture I sent
It’s got to be close now👍
 

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Discussion Starter · #58 ·
Posy 47, Question 2e. "You verified that you have the correct distributor for a turbo car? "

Are the spark plugs fouled and/or is the oil fuel diluted?
Exactly he said not sure, hence the picture I sent
It’s got to be close now👍
Thanks for the picture on the distributor, I had no idea the turbo one would be different. Again, I missed it when I compared the old one to the new one. The turbo one has that window, which I didn’t see the first time. To be fair to me, I was trackside just hoping to get the thing to run.…
Brand new plugs, not fouled. (Pic below)
Not sure what you mean by oil fuel being diluted?

Good spark.
Popping and backfire, but no start. I can smell the gasoline while cranking and hear the fuel pump come on when jumping the ASD.

We are getting close!!
Motor vehicle Rim Gas Automotive exterior Automotive fuel system
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 · (Edited)
9:56 pm CDT, 6-Sep Update:
It’s running. The final piece was that I had all the spark plug wires backwards (1 - 4, 2 - 3, etc.). I guess at one point with taking them off and on again I got them all mixed up.

In the end, it was the wrong distributor all along.

HUGE THANKS to NAJ for sticking with me for three pages and nearly 60 posts.
Big thanks also to d_snook for the distributor picture.

I can’t thank you all enough for your help. If you’re ever down Houston way, the BBQ, TexMex, Beer, or whatever is on me. That’s not an empty offer…..Thank you thank you thank you.

-Tim S.

10:15 pm edit:
P.S. After we got that spark I just KNEW it was something silly. I started thumbing thru my shop manual and stumbled across a diagram of the spark plug wires, and I just said “I wonder….” Sure enough, that’s what it was. Thanks again everyone, I sincerely mean it.
 

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Good information to know. I have run into a few issues getting replacement parts and wrong one for my Turbo Minivan.

1. MAP sensor - Rock Auto and all parts stores list a sensor, but it is for a TBI car, but it is listed as it will work.

2. Rear drums - Rock Auto and all other parts stores list two sets of drums, 5x100 and 5x114. I never knew of 114 pattern on any 1st gen minivans

Glad to know what to look for with distributors.
 
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