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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey, wanted to get everyones oppinion on this. What do I need to do to make my bottom end happy to 10K rpm? :eek: I know the cams I have will make power there, I know the valve train will handle it. I know my pistons will handle it. What do I need to do? Its time to start getting serious. :cool:
Input, please. :thumb:
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
A AAA balance job is part of it weather I rev it to 6k or 10k :D But, it was my understanding that these motors are pretty much naturally balanced.

I know my venolias are lighter, is it rods I need to worry about? The crank is knife edged already. I have a possible lead on some lighter ferrrea valves if I can beg enough. I am thinking just a good set of manley rods and I will be good?

Thanks for the input. :thumb:
 

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rod stress goes up with RPM, running say 6K with 40psi is easier on the rod then running 10K with 10psi. I dont think the valvetrain will handle 10K I think SMP said 9K is OK. But you need a huge ass turbo(like larger then Ondonti's) or its worthless as boost will just keep falling(unless your only running 10psi, but then whats the point).

Basically the main question I have for you is: Why do you think you need to rev to 10K? My opinion is its not even close to being a consideration until after your are well above 500WHP and are havind trouble with useable powerband because of a HUGE Turbo
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The turbo I am running flows 71lb/min.(holset HX 40pro) And I dont "think" it will be too hard a problem to get up there. And the valvetrain can handle it, and I dont plan to run it that high like all the time, but its nice to know the capability is there.
Thanks alot for your input, and check out my mod list in my sig link. That will give you a better idea of the build I have already started. Thanks again.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
And, its not so much as I am looking for is it possible, as what do I need to do it? I know its possible, and if I set a goal to do it, I will. But, I just need to know what everyone thinks the weak points are going to be. So far, Rods, but I plan on getting a set of Manley's, so that takes care of that.
 

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Um...good oiling system!! Maybe consider a dry sump.

Also, can a cast crank hold up at 10k...would you need forged??
 

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but its nice to know the capability is there
I know but what is the purpose of the car going to be? Just to say you can rev that high? How much money are you willing to spend? how much power do you want to make?(like I said unless you going for 700whp+ I dont see the point, I'm positive you can make 600whp+ with a 8000 rpm limit)

I'm not knocking you at all so please just open up to what I'm saying. It can be done!

Things you need: (I dont know much:()
To me 1st of all you you need a purpose of doing it, as in competative racing of some sort(even dyno racing), or to advertise/promote.

You would need some nice rods, pistons, billet mains, lighten/knife edge the crank, underdriven accessories(prob electric water and oil pumps/drysump), possibly custom belt tensioner, a good standalone ecu and ignition, the best headwork you can get/larger cams to actually make power up that high, ect... If using a manual trans you need a billet flywheel thats rated to go that high, NHRA spec scatter sheild, ect..

All 'm saying is more boost is normally cheaper then RPM's, If you want to get the best bang for your buck out of existing parts I would keep the limiter down to whatever the max is for the flywheel(call them and ask about it), even then you need good parts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Um...good oiling system!! Maybe consider a dry sump.

Also, can a cast crank hold up at 10k...would you need forged??
T3's are forged. They are one of the few cars made that came forged everything. And a way overbuilt drivetrain, hence the timing belt failures.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I know but what is the purpose of the car going to be? Just to say you can rev that high? How much money are you willing to spend? how much power do you want to make?(like I said unless you going for 700whp+ I dont see the point, I'm positive you can make 600whp+ with a 8000 rpm limit)

I'm not knocking you at all so please just open up to what I'm saying.

Things you need: (I dont know much:()
To me 1st of all you you need a purpose of doing it, as in competative racing of some sort(even dyno racing), or to advertise/promote.

You would need some nice rods, pistons, billet mains, lighten/knife edge the crank, underdriven accessories(prob electric water and oil pumps/drysump), a good standalone ecu and ignition, the best headwork you can get/larger cams to actually make power up that high. If using a manual trans you need a billet flywheel and clutch thats rated to go that high(looking at a 1 of a kind peice$$$), NHRA spec scatter sheild, ect..
I am totally open to what you are saying. I totally appreciate the input. Rods I would go with the manley's I mentioned earlier, pistons would be the venolias, crank has had some work, but willing to go more. I have a spare motor, so this would not take the rt out of commission. Not really sure what to do as far as a dry sump. Wouldnt really know where to start there. ECU would be megasquirt. There is a local guy that for 1500 bucks will get me the computer, make me harnesses (that are bad ass I might add lol) install, and a base tune. My head on the RT now has a stage one done by the best t3 porter. :D And the stage one cams will make power up that high.
I am not looking to compete or anything like that. Its more a I think it would be cool and different if feasible. Putting ecu, clutch and whatnot aside. The bottom end is what I am most worried about. And its not even so much that it will rev that high any time soon. I want my spare longblock to be total overkill. I may not even end up wanting to go that high, but to know that the motor could is just piece of mind. Look at this as more a way to get a good discussion going than anything.
Thanks for your input. :thumb:
 

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I hear you, some times you have to limit things realistically. But like you said it is a good discussion topic, but not many will be able to answer many questions like what parts are good to what RPM except for SMP and maybe Wallace. The 1st thing I would do is search the site for all the posts by SMP(read the whole threads) and copy/paste the info you find helpful into a word document, this is what I do all the time on the internet so i have a couple word docs on my computer with tons of great info about various topics.


I'm not sure about that $1500 MS install, I mean looking at neons.org and MS forums you can learn how to tune it properly and hook it up. My opinion is its better to learn how it works and do it yourself especially if its something you enjoy or care about and also to save you $$ and hassle in the future(when you upgrade or have an issue).
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I hear you, some times you have to limit things realistically. But like you said it is a good discussion topic, but not many will be able to answer many questions like what parts are good to what RPM except for SMP and maybe Wallace. The 1st thing I would do is search the site for all the posts by SMP(read the whole threads) and copy/paste the info you find helpful into a word document, this is what I do all the time on the internet so i have a couple word docs on my computer with tons of great info about various topics.


I'm not sure about that $1500 MS install, I mean looking at neons.org and MS forums you can learn how to tune it properly and hook it up. My opinion is its better to learn how it works and do it yourself especially if its something you enjoy or care about and also to save you $$ and hassle in the future(when you upgrade or have an issue).
I have been kinda looking at some of the smp threads. And the word document thing is a good idea. :thumb: And Wallace and I have discussed his cams, so I know they woulnt be an issue.
As far as the MS thing goes. Its more for his harnesses. I dont want a bunch of wires everywhere. I have seen what this guy has done on a few veedubs and an audi and a couple of others. The "base tune" is just to kinda show me the basics. He will let me be there for every step of the process, and the cost also includes the MS computer (which I have no idea how much it is, never looked) I totally want to learn to tune it myself though. Thats the fun part, well, and the whole putting it together thing. :D
Thanks again.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I am also wondering what the safe limit on my motor thats currently in the RT is. Its got Venolias, shotpeened rods, arp hardware, an excellent windage tray and oil pan baffle. Its seen 6800 (damn limiter) many, many times. and seems to not be a problem. I think its safe to take it to 8k if I can get cindy to raise my limiter that high? Or do you think the rods would just be pissed at that point?
 

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I dont see whats wrong with seeking a higher rpm potencial.
If the potencial is there then its just being wasted.

There is no rule that says you must make a certain power level to rev to a certain level.

And I will bet money 40psi from a big turbo in a t3 is much more stressful then 10k rpms........with the rpms all you need to worry about is things letting go. 40psi on a big turbo puts you in a whole new ballgame where your motor wants to tear itself apart and you have no coolant system because the block is totally filled etc etc etc.

Im gonna guess billet 4 bolt main caps and some good rods on a forged crank are a start but who knows...maybe cast can handle it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Like you and I were talking about last night, a stupidly wide powerband would be alot of fun. :D And, again, R/Ts have forged cranks. :p

Whos making billet main caps? Jackson? looking in your direction? maybe :p
 

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I sent FWDP 5 sets of main caps a short while ago, they are ready and awaiting your check book.

The valves will float at that point, the lifters wont keep up, so you will need to have a mechanical setup.

I doubt the intake setup will give edequate airflow at those rpms, so youd be beating a dead horse IMO.

So did you get the Holset on?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I sent FWDP 5 sets of main caps a short while ago, they are ready and awaiting your check book.

The valves will float at that point, the lifters wont keep up, so you will need to have a mechanical setup.

I doubt the intake setup will give edequate airflow at those rpms, so youd be beating a dead horse IMO.

So did you get the Holset on?
So 9600 would be ok? :p What is the genral consensus for the limit of the valve train? In previous discussions, I thought it was 10k or so?

And you know I am going to want one of the new lonewolf intakes regarless if I make it to 10k or not. ;)

Jackson is working on my downpipe setup. It will be on in a few weeks. :D He, like everyone else is really busy. He told me he would have it to me by end of april, so I am good with that.

Stupid question wallace, what main caps are you running? How safe are the stockers with arp hardware?

I guess what it all boils down to is. How hard can I push my current block (rpm and HP) I would like to see 450+ and 8k min. Its not stock, and has been "built" but does have stock rods.
And whats needed to push my spare motor even further.

Thanks everyone for there help. This is a great thread, and I would like to see it go further. :thumb:
 

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I sent FWDP 5 sets of main caps a short while ago, they are ready and awaiting your check book.

The valves will float at that point, the lifters wont keep up, so you will need to have a mechanical setup.

I doubt the intake setup will give edequate airflow at those rpms, so youd be beating a dead horse IMO.

So did you get the Holset on?
What exactly do you mean when you say the lifters wont keep up? That entails collapsing...
 

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The hydraulics just cant react quickly enough.

9000 is the limit, but not a practical limit. The valve train is heavy with long valves and hydraulic lifters. Stephane went to titanium valves and mechanical setup because of this.

The engine in the Omni now has stock mains with ARP hardware. Im not taking that one over 700 h.p. due to the mains, it will serve its purpose to allow me to get the chassis sorted out and swap in the new engine we are doing.

Id be hesitant to spin a stock rodded engine that hard very much. Also at some point you can start breaking blocks, 500 seems safe typically, but addly enough Larry J, busted 2 blocks for no apparent reason around the 425-475 h.p. level.

If you do decide to spin that hard, pony up for the ARP 2000 pro stuff.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
The hydraulics just cant react quickly enough.

9000 is the limit, but not a practical limit. The valve train is heavy with long valves and hydraulic lifters. Stephane went to titanium valves and mechanical setup because of this.

The engine in the Omni now has stock mains with ARP hardware. Im not taking that one over 700 h.p. due to the mains, it will serve its purpose to allow me to get the chassis sorted out and swap in the new engine we are doing.

Id be hesitant to spin a stock rodded engine that hard very much. Also at some point you can start breaking blocks, 500 seems safe typically, but addly enough Larry J, busted 2 blocks for no apparent reason around the 425-475 h.p. level.

If you do decide to spin that hard, pony up for the ARP 2000 pro stuff.
Thanks wallace. I wont be getting anywhere near 700hp, so on this motor, I will stick with the stock main caps. I would really, really like to see atleast 450whp on this motor. But, the only reason I am looking for the extra revs is the powerband.

You have an idea of my build, would you feel safe spinning it to 8k? I think that would be good for the time being. It does have ARP everything.

I do know someone that has some ferrea valves for the lotus head, its just what kind of begging I have to do to get them, or to even get him to concider parting them. lol

Wallace, if your not to busy around 6pm-ish, you should call me, or I can call you. Whatever works. I want to talk about some things with ya. :D
 
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