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Discussion Starter #1
I've got a GLH-T hat's been persuaded (long ago) that its an 87 T2 Daytona. About 3 weeks back I put in a new 2.5 engine (forged & ported etc.), a new rebuilt turbo, new +20% injectors, cap, rotor, replaced a some of the sensors including O2 but not MAP. Its running on a FWD Performance stage 3 logic module. Between the new engine and body issues I've got a laundry list of issues that I'm working through. This afternoon I had a look at the idle problem from my list. It starts well and seems to idle smoothly for about a minute then presumably around the time you'd expect that it goes into closed loop the idle quality degrades. It sounds as if its running rich. I'm not sure if its actually missing or not but the problem is somewhat in that direction. Actually it sounds a bit like a V8 with a high overlap cam at idle, but not necessarily in a good way. It does have an agressive cam* but I don't think a turbo cam has that sound to it and its not noticeable when it first starts. I've got three MAP sensors on the car so I wanted to be sure I've got the right one - I'm measuring ~1v at idle and ~2.5v with the engine off. Seems correct for a 2 bar MAP which is what's needed for the FWD Performance stage 3 LM, right?? It doesn't seem to be missing from an ignition standpoint as I can put a timing light on any of the wires and the pulses look regular. When I look at the output of the new 1 wire O2 sensor that's where it gets interesting. I see .533v continuously with very little fluctuation. It might go up and down by +/- .01v but that's about all. This measured at #18 of the blue connector at the LM. I'm seeing good continuity through the wire from the LM to the O2 sensor. Thoughts?

Oh, a few other things - adjustable FPR is set to 45 psi with no vacuum. When I disconnect and reconnect the MAP connector it goes into some kind of special mode in which the idle goes back to being great at least until the next time I start it. This idle problem may have been present before the new engine but would have been masked by it being a long dying engine with many other problems and forgetfulness on my part since its been a few years since I've run this car.

*Cam: http://turbosunleashed.com/shop/performance-roller-camshafts-p-486.html
file:///C:/Users/Owner/Downloads/TU%20R5%20camshaft%20timing.pdf
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Hmm, interesting... Since writing the above I've looked a bit around the forum and it seems that 55 psi is what I should have set the fuel pressure at. I could have sworn that it should be 45 and I think(?) 45 is what Cindy recommended for the stage 3 LM and +20% injectors when I asked her. Perhaps she was referring to pressure with the engine running and vacuum line connected and I took it to be with no vacuum. I know that when I first started the new engine the idle quality was worse than it is now and that the improvement was made when I checked the fuel pressure and found it to be at 38 psi so I raised it to 45 (without vacuum being connected). So maybe I need to raise it more to 55 psi eh? But even then how do we explain that the O2 sensor voltage seems to be steady around .533v?

NAJ's writeup on fuel pressure - https://www.turbododge.com/threads/checking-fuel-pressure-84-93-turbo.358339/
 

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Be sure all basics are where they should be including fuel pressure.
If the O2 voltage is reading steady at .533 volts try quickly snapping the throttle open quickly a couple of times to see if the O2 voltage moves at all.

Also, are you using a scanner?
 

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Wideband O2 sensor needed asap, you can guess at your mixture all day long or you can see what it actually is.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thank you for your replies. It'll be a few days before I can get back under the hood. Please check back late Saturday though I may have feedback on sooner. The answers I can give now are - I don't have a scanner. I do have a wideband somewhere that I'll dig up and clean the dust off of, but IIRC, I'll have to get a new sensor for it. And since I only have one O2 sensor bung I have to hope that it has an output simulating a narrow band that I can feed into my LM. Please remember to check back I value the help.
 

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By the O2 voltage you posted it appears you are "stuck at center".
It my be advisable to determine why (wiring/sensor/controller) before getting in to deep.
It is an easy test if you can get access to a scanner, diagnostics are the same for all years.
Just in case, these are from the 90 FSM, the only difference will be your O2 signal s a BK wire and runs to the LM Blue Connector Cavity 18.
90 Code 21, Center 1 (91-93).jpg 90 Code 21, Center 2 (91-93).jpg 90 Code 21, Center 3 (91-93).jpg 90 Code 21, Center 4 (91-93).jpg 85-87 LM Turbo Blue.jpg
 

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Are you looking to buy or borrow?
If you are looking to buy/borrow one and only working on an 87 it really does not matter too much, depends what else you may want to use it on in the future.
DRB2 (Chrysler OBD1 scanner 1983 - 1995), OTC Monitor 2000 or 4000E or a Snap On MT3500 which will access Engine/Powertrain/BCM/ABS/SRS, etc. on all vehicles from 83/84 - 2005 with the proper cartridges/software updates/cables.
If you are looking to buy one used just for this car go with the OTC 2000/4000E 3 in 1, just be sure it comes with the Chrysler cable.
I have never used the 4000E but it is supposed to be an upgrade from the 2000 and it may (I am not sure) be able to access the BCM with the proper cables.

The positives of owning a scanner are you can perform Actuation Tests which are needed in diagnostics and you can see what the controller is actually seeing.
Normally if you backprobe to check voltage you are only reading up to the controller and have no idea what is happening after that,
You will be able to follow all Chrysler Diagnostic Flow Charts which makes Life Much Easier.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Buy not borrow. I'm on my 6th GLH-T, its probably a bit past time I bought one. I will probably only need it for the 87 DaytOmni. I wandered around the "OTC 4000E" aisle of ebay for the last 20 minutes but I can't find any (toward the budget end at least) that state what cables are included. This one has a lot of cables, can you spot a Chrysler cable in the pictures? https://www.ebay.com/itm/OTC-Monitor-4000E-Diagnostic-System-with-Manuals-in-original-Case/254358053874?epid=1722125766&hash=item3b38ebe3f2:g:bqgAAOSwcv5desi5
 

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If you are only working on an 87 an OTC Monitor 2000 will do what you need it to do, that is what I had when I bought my car new in 90 and it lasted about 8 years or so.
 

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Buy not borrow. I'm on my 6th GLH-T, its probably a bit past time I bought one. I will probably only need it for the 87 DaytOmni. I wandered around the "OTC 4000E" aisle of ebay for the last 20 minutes but I can't find any (toward the budget end at least) that state what cables are included. This one has a lot of cables, can you spot a Chrysler cable in the pictures? https://www.ebay.com/itm/OTC-Monitor-4000E-Diagnostic-System-with-Manuals-in-original-Case/254358053874?epid=1722125766&hash=item3b38ebe3f2:g:bqgAAOSwcv5desi5
That scanner you posted does have the Chrysler cable. $100 isn't bad if the shipping isn't crazy high. I have a OTC 2000 that I use for a backup to my DRB II. That is the one my friends get to use when they want to borrow mine (lol). It works fine. Also have a Actron 9150 that has the Chrysler connector.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I just ordered up the 4000E linked above. Thanks for the help. Shipping was $0 (or I could have paid for premium shipping which I didn't). It should be in my hands by Thursday the 19th but please check back here late Saturday the 14th for an update based on the sticks and stones I do have available. Thanks again.
 

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That scanner you posted does have the Chrysler cable. $100 isn't bad if the shipping isn't crazy high. I have a OTC 2000 that I use for a backup to my DRB II. That is the one my friends get to use when they want to borrow mine (lol). It works fine. Also have a Actron 9150 that has the Chrysler connector.
Looks like it sold. You buy it? Just saw that condition is untested. That is a gamble. Typical of some shady Ebay sellers. Some sell stuff that they know doesn't work, and list it as untested. See this all the time with guys that repair radios. They clearly know it doesn't work, because they repair radios, but claim it is untested? Huh? Buyer beware with this scam.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
ummm Hmm Ugh. First thing I've bought on ebay in a dozen or so years it seems and well um...
 

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ummm Hmm Ugh. First thing I've bought on ebay in a dozen or so years it seems and well um...
It will probably work just fine. Just I seen and dealt with plenty of scammers on Ebay and of course Craigslist.
Good luck! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.
 

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If you used PayPal you are 99.9% protected.
eBay and PayPal usually always side with the buyer these days, however...

HOPE IT WORKS!!! fingers crossed.gif
 

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4000E is way nicer than the 2000. I've had both. It's nice to see all 4 cylinders knock retard on the screen at a time where on the 2000 you can't. Both do the same things but the bigger screen is well worth it.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I had a session under the hood today and this is the report.

First, I don't yet have the OTC 4000E. I found my wideband but didn't install it yet because a) I don't have a hole in the firewall large enough to pass the cable ends through, b) I got diverted in trying to find my 12v power supply to do the recommended free air calibration test (important since this sensor has seen some lead), c) I don't have a 2nd sensor bung in the exhaust which is needed since this wideband doesn't seem to have a narrow band output. Also, I forgot to try the throttle snap test that NAJ suggested above (which would have taken 5 seconds, dooh).

In chronological order -

Set fuel pressure to 55 psi with engine off (no vacuum).

Engine off, key on, O2 sensor disconnected - measured .367V on pin 18 of blue LM connector. Re-measured shortly after and got .483V. Turned key off and it goes to 0V. This is probably meaningless just essentially static electricity because there is no meaningful current drain.

O2 sensor cold, no wire connected - measured 0.000V sensor output. Also probably meaningless.

Disconnected both ends of O2 sense wire to check to see if its in contact with something it shouldn't be or if I have the wrong wire. I get 0 ohms down the wire and open circuit between the wire and water pump ground (its new and shiny). - no problem here.

Start engine with O2 sensor disconnected from wire. Measurement at pin 18 is .618V. Over the 10 minutes I ran it with the O2 sensor disconnected the idle quality was better than it had been, near normal other than a new problem which was that about once a minute the idle speed would spike to 1500 rpm for about 4 seconds.

Continued running at idle with O2 sensor disconnected. Sensor voltage reads close to 0 (.005-.010V) for longer than I would have expected, ?4? minutes before sensor outputs .258V. That seems like a legitimate output indicating a somewhat lean mixture.

While idling with O2 sensor disconnected I had a series of experiments alternately grounding the wire to LM #18 or feeding it with 1-1/2V (touching wire to + on a flashlight battery that was grounded to engine). For most of these experiments I saw no response in the mixture as measured through the O2 sensor voltage but as I said I did this many times and some of them did seem to get a response. In these when I'd ground the LM wire the sensor voltage would go to .94V over about 15 seconds and when I'd feed the LM with 1.5V the sensor voltage would go to .14V - seemingly response in the right direction but at first and in the end I couldn't duplicate those responses.

Went out for a drive including some full throttle on the freeway. I should state that currently the waste gate is connected to the intake manifold with no valve between to limit boost until I get a handle on some things. So boost stayed low but since I can't find what I did with my boost gauge I have no idea what boost I'm seeing. Seat of the pants ?5? psi maybe. I feel like the engine is running reasonably smoothly on the road and producing the power I'd expect given the boost limit but there seems to my ear to be some light knock at 3500 RPM and up WOT.

Anyways, that's the report from this session. Probably not much meaningful in there. More in a few days when I get a chance.
 

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When you get your scanner run the "O2 Voltage Stuck At Center" diagnostics I posted to be sure the controller is seeing the voltage changes.
Naturally if you are latched below .450 volts then you are in fact lean so let us know what O2 voltage is reading/doing.

You thought you heard knock?
Chances are you did not, if knock is/was present the controller will pull ignition timing until the knock stops, you would probably notice a drastic drop in performance before actually hearing knock.
You can view knock/knock retard while driving when you get your scanner (using a helper of course).

And of course, when you are able to, get that Wideband installed.
 
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