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Stage 3 build thread (going beyond +40 inj's)

Performance Mod 
8K views 3 replies 1 participant last post by  Shadow 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Everything in this thread takes into account that you've already read the previous build threads and are familiar with the basics and even some of the not-so-basic stuff.

Stage 1

Stage 2

Again;

- Proper maintenance!

- Run the right octane fuel!

- Watch those gauges! (better yet, get a good data logger)

WELCOME TO STAGE 3! (For the 2.2/2.5 8V Platform)

I'm defining "stage three" as going beyond what the +40 (52lb) common MP inj's are going to support. So we're talking 400-550WHP+. Again, turbo selection will ultimately decide weather your going just past the 400WHP mark, or wanting to test the limits of what these 8v'ers can Really do!

Let's look at the ENGINE MANAGEMENT;

Many at this level are going to want to go stand-alone, which is fine, wasn't so long ago that many thought stand alone was a Must at anywhere near these levels, I was not one of them, understanding that the factory management should be fully capable. So I'm not going to go into any detail on that, other than whatever stand alone system you choose, just learn it well!

4 bar cals have gained some popularity over the last 5 years or so and are defiantly worth looking into if your planning on running well over 30psi boost levels. This was once thought to be a "hard" rescale for our ECU's, but has proven to really not be any harder than the first 3 bar cals. (go figure :)) I ran a 4 bar cal in the Charger for several years until I wired in a Detec from an SRT-4 which gives 4 bar capability (reading and clamping the 3 bar) + some data logging.

Sticking with the 3 bar cal you have now (or upping to 4 bar for control above 30psi boost), your going to want to upgrade those +40 inj's (52lb) with (most likely) 65lb, 72lb, 83lb, or 95lb like the ones I'm currently running in the Charger. This is where you need to take a good look at your goals and try and make the right choice. Your going to have to have your calibration rescaled for the new inj's, so if you go too small, you'll be doing this all over again when you start running out of fuel again. I went from +40 to 72lb inj's and they were good to just past 480WHP on a stock (drilled out) fuel rail on my fuel cell (was out of fuel on the rear tank because of the distance, length of fuel line) Fuel cell is up front and has about 2' of 1/2" line. Now this was also on a Mustang dyno, so your prob going to see 500WHP+ on a Dynojet and others.

I then went from the 72's straight to the 95lb that I'm running now and also added a second fuel pump to feed the other side of the rail so that I would not be running out of fuel again, any time soon. My recommendation would be a properly sized fuel pump, at least 3/8 fuel line and a large volume fuel rail.

If your not running an EBC (electronic boost controller) this would be a good time to look into them. They are a Great way of having complete control over boost including boost by gear which is great on the street for controlling traction in the lower gears. I'm not saying that a grainger and/or metering valves don't work at this level (I was a die hard for years with grainger based manual boost control) but for myself, once I made the switch I would Never go back.

Was not that long ago that the community thought anything close to 500HP needed an external W/G. (I was not one of those lol) While some still believe they give better control and make better power, I still believe it's all relative to the system you build. eg. The Holset on the Charger has a 4" V-band exit. I took advantage of that and ran a 4" downpipe with dump tube right at the pass side floor pan. IF I was sticking to 3" only exhaust off the turbo, I would have ran an external W/G and dumped it to atmosphere, the difference in those two systems being almost negligible. So it all depends on the flow path of the W/G and how well the W/G is set-up (size wise) vs exhaust flow After the turbine. BTW, last fall when I was upping the boost at the track it was going in 1/4lb increments and I could have gone Slower, pretty decent control if you ask me :)

So, the choice is yours and I think it will come down to fitment in the end, just saying that a properly thought out internal W/G set-up can still work fine at this level.

Up until now, the factory coil and spark have worked well, but it all changes when you start to up the cylinder pressure. Your going to want a Good ignition system now, Aurora, MSD ect. Take your pick, but once you start blowing out spark your not going to want to piss around with the stock set-up any more. I went with an Aurora box and it has worked Flawlessly with the Champion 9YC's that I still run. It goes without saying that your going to want a good set of wires as well.

OTHER KEY PLAYERS;

3" mandrel S/V or equivalent (any 3"+ mandrel right off the turbo) becomes mandatory equipment at this level if you don't want to be leaving a lot of power on the table.ATP

Custom big plenum intake also becomes a mandatory item as a Fully ported 2 piece will quickly become a limiting factor above 400WHP. When I switched to the custom intake I'm running now (back when I was running the 57 trim) I gained 30WHP @ 33lbs boost and needed to upgrade the ignition because of the spark blow-out I was getting. Along with the intake, 58mm TB or larger at this level. The Charger is still running a 58mm, but should be going 60+.

Ah yes, the ported stock mani vs header.......again! lol Now, as much as this may surprise many, a header is Not mandatory at this level as the Charger has proven with an almost perfect 1:1 pressure ratio that the (properly ported) stock mani is fully capable of doing the job. Keep in mind that the #1 reason this is working so well is the lack of restriction After the turbo! (my 4" dump)

So, would I recommend a header at this level? For anyone who seriously wants to test the limits of how far they can go, or wants to get everything they can out of the system, Yes. IF you can build a Proper header or have a Proper header built for you. I've seen a couple out there, but that's about it, as most I've seen have only caused grief to the owners and ended up coming off the vehicle, cracked, failed ect.

For street driven reliability, you still can't beat the stock ported piece. The Charger is at the 550WHP level now and showing no signs of slowing down. It will be interesting, however, to see just how much lower the boost will go when a header eventually makes it's way on to the build. (my guess, the same power at 10lbs Less boost!)

PCV;

I ran the one way valve with 5/8" hose from V/C to exhaust up to around 33psi and 130mph trap speeds. That set-up worked Great, right up to around that point. Then one day at the track the Charger was breaking up and I was going through everything to figure out where it was coming from. Finally lifted the pick-up off the distributor and found it completely oiled under there. Cleaned it up and went for a couple more passes and checked it. Sure enough, more oil coming up the distributor shaft. At first I thought that the sealing ring in the shaft had gone bad, but after pulling the dizzy and checking the shaft play, it felt tight.

So, when I got home I made an oil cap with a vacume nipple in the middle and took the Charger out to test what kind of pressure was building in the mtr at that power level. With the PVC line straight off the V/C plugged into the one way valve in the exhaust I was seeing around 3psi pressure in the mtr at 33psi boost. I checked and valve, no problem, but changed it anyway, went on line and listened to everyones opinion on changing the angle, depth ect ect of the pipe going into the exhaust, basically tried everything to total Failure! lol

Finally got my thinking cap back on and started looking what others making big power were doing and found that they were simply venting the mtr to atmosphere. So that's what I did. I drilled two holes 3/4" I think, into the V/C and ran large enough hoses to a filter box so that the pressure build up could not overtake the diam of the hose. Went for a cruise with the nipple modded oil cap and maybe 1/2psi? (could barely tell if the needle was moving) Now I left that Same distributor in there as a "test" to see if it would solve the problem. :)

Went back out to the track and ran the Charger all day and Zero oil in the dizzy! I still have that same dizzy in there to this very day and have Never had a problem since! So, your going to want a good PVC system, this is what has worked for me and pretty much every one I know making big power. Choice is yours.




TURBO;

My recommendations would be a 50 trim stage 3 for the smaller side of things up to a 6262 on the other end of the scale. Emphasis on nothing smaller than a stage 3 .63 A/R hot side and something in a 60ish mm on the compressor side without going overboard and you should end up with a nice set-up. BTW, the Holset HE351 I've been running has fit this criteria as well as I ever could have imagined, IMHO The go to turbo for this build ; ) (so any turbo that specs out close to the HE351 Should work well)

Good BOV, believe it or not, I'm still using the modded Talon BOV. Has never leaked or caused any problems (39psi Boost) and now I'm afraid to upgrade.

If your turbo has a 4" inlet then upgrade to a 4" CAI and matching filter. I've been running 4" CAI on my turbos even when they had a 3" inlet (just dropped back to 3" right off the turbo inlet) and never looked back.

Run the biggest FMIC you can fit! (literally) I personally would go with nothing less than 3" in and 3" out, followed by 3" hard pipes. ( 2 1/2 will get you by but I prefer the larger piping to Slow things down in front of the intake and allow more cooling to take effect through the whole system)

ENGINE;

This can still be done on stock pistons and rods. (Heck, I'm still running a non-common block with stock rods!) Although I wouldn't recommend it. A fully built CB mtr from a reputable machine shop with forged rods and pistons and good windage system is what I would recommend here.

As far as the head goes, I'm still running the +1mm G-head on the Charger, but I would recommend running the best flowing head you can get from someone who knows what they're doing. Valve size is completely dependant on the porters ability to match the port and other aspects to the valve size. So IF you or your head porter is confident, put in the larger valves. I have seen a lot of Big valve heads that didn't flow near as well as a +1mm done right.

On top of the regular #4 cooling mod, I now weld a 5/8 AL hose barb fitting on top of the water pump and route it to another 5/8 hose barb welded through the center of the #4 cyl frost plug. This is our 2nd #4 cyl mod and I run it on all 2.2/2,5's making 400WHP or more. The first #4 cooling mods stays exactly the same, no change there. I believe the main reason I can run a MP H/G at this level with such success is because of how evenly Cool the 2.2 in the Charger has always run after doing these two mods, but there are others who are making big power and Not doing them the same, so decision is yours :)

Also worth noting, the Charger now runs an AL dble pass radiator. While I never had a cooling problem using the factory L-body rad, there comes a time when you just step up and don't look back. This is that time as running hot will fast become your #1 problem and will only lead to break down after break down :(

Cam Cam CAM! Yowsa!!!! IF you don't have a cam in there Do It NOW! The Charger dyno'd 480WHP on the stock cam at 38psi on the Holset. When I switched to the FWD F4 cam the car picked up almost 40WHP on 3lb LESS boost. (35 psi) Your only leaving power on the table at this build level without a cam. Now having said that, I can still only recommend the FWD F4 and the old Taft S3 as these are still the Only off-the-shelf cams that I have documented Proof, work Great in our mtrs. (not saying no other cams work, just can't recommend them at this time, so choose wisely!)

Conicles/ Pt's/ FWD performance Crane springs, all your choice, just make sure everything is installed correctly (height ect) and your running the right spring rates for your cam application. (I'm still using FWD's Crane springs and they're working flawlessly to 7400RPM with the F4 cam)

While the Charger continues to get it done on stock two bolt mains and stock hardware, I would recommend adding the Pro-Gram 4 bolt Billet main caps and ARP hardware to the build. A nice bit of added insurance at this power level.

TRANSMISSION;

Automatic; Same as stage two. Follow the build info in the tranny section. The auto's hold up well to this power level IF put together properly and kept cool with clean fluid. You may want to run something other than Dextron II at this level though. (I may do a write up on auto's in the future, just to give an idea of what I would build)

Manual;

Same as Stage two. Some are using A/M brass shift fork pads and running into problems with the race walking off the shaft but I have yet to encounter this myself @ 550WHP the 568 in the Charger is still Bone stock with quaife.

I would recommend a quaife posi at this level and above. At the very least, if your running an open diff, shim the diff to the tightest tolerance, which I believe is .001" (.001-.015 is the spec if memory serves and most are at the loose end of that)

If your running a 555 or 520 the CM end plate is mandatory at this level.

Hybrids;

I tried a 3:50 geared hybrid in the Charger years ago and did not go any faster. At the time the Charger was cutting 1.7X 60's and it did this with the hybrid as well. I came to the conclusion that the hybrid is only need IF your running out of 4th gear before the end of the 1/4 or traction limited (ie. don't know how to hook up with slicks or are not running slicks) It's a Great upgrade for the street though, as it will give better traction on street tires by lowering the gearing and also makes for a nice HWY cruiser!

Clutch;

There are a # of clutch options out there for this power level. Research them and make sure they are capable of holding the power you want to put down. One thing I've learned about clutches that goes against the common belief is you Don't want your clutch to give or "slip" a little IF you want to get everything out of your set-up at the track. I would highly suggest reading over the 470-700WHP clutch thread HERE and moving to that set-up IF you want to run 10's or faster and don't want to be leaving a lot of ET on the table. (this is the reason I developed that set-up for the Charger, I Didn't want the clutch to be "slipping" between shifts and loosing ET down the track)

Stock turbo axles from the larger body styles are still fine for holding this kind of power. If your driving an L-body your going to want to convert it to a set of Daytona (or equivalent) axles or maybe step right up to the Dynasty axles. (I will write an article on how to do this swap in the coming months)

FUELING;

Somewhere between 470-520WHP (depending on dyno and line/rail size) your going to start to run out of fuel from the pump. Upgrade as need. (I ran twin S60 Bosch pumps and fed the stock modded fuel rail from both ends up till now, but am going away from that set-up to a proper larger volume AL rail with remote reg.)

Running a 3 gal fuel cell up front on the Pass side is a good way of transferring weight to the front of the car for better traction. I installed a Jegs 3 gal cell at the front pass side of the Charger years ago and just drain the rear tank when I get to the track and run my "race tune" off the cell.

SUSPENSION;

Poly bushings everywhere up front at the very least. What you really want at this level and above is Hiem joints to replace the old bushing set-up. There are a couple of vendors out there that make lightened A-arms with hiem joints and matching light weight cross members for our cars now! These two pieces are a Huge improvement over the stock pieces on And off the track! The Charger has dropped a full tenth off it's 60's since going to this set-up and has become way more consistent. Also feels 100% better on the street as the "jowncy" feel when going over bumps is now smooth and responsive. If your concerned that replacing the rubber bushings with steel hiem joints will make the suspension "Harsh" it's quite the opposite. :)

I ran MP front struts and lowering springs in the Charger with stock rears and rubber isolators to stop the rear end from squatting with 24" slick down to 11.04 @ 132mph. The Charger has been sporting front coil over's which I originally installed to clear the 26" slicks with 250lb springs along with matching rear coil over's and 350lb springs. I have since swapped the 350lb springs to the front (the hiem suspension is so smooth I was able to utilize the stiffer springs without any harsh side effects) and I now run 900lb springs in the rear at the track with the coil over's and swap back to stock rear shocks (Shelby HD's) with stock Shelby Charger shortened springs.

BRAKES;

I ran the factory front brakes and 87-88 Daytona rear disc brakes (non-vented external E-brake) up to 135mph trap speeds and they were adequate up to that level, but a little scary if the track had a short shut down area. Now I was just running regular pads, so I'm sure if I would have upgraded to Hawks or some other performance pad things would have been a lot better. I would imagine that upgrading to the KH 11" vented brake set-up all the way around would be more than sufficient for 150mph + speeds, but they are very heavy.

I ended up modding some Wilwood brakes front and back and went full manual (got rid of the booster) and the brakes feel 100% better now. I can ease into them on the high end and easily slow down without having to "jump" on them and feel like I'm almost pushing my right foot through the floor. lol Along with the superior braking I saved over 50lbs and gained a lot of room in the engine compartment. (I was running the full sized Daytona 4WD brake booster) Hopefully I will find time to do a mod thread and go into more detail on this in the brake section of the forum :)


FOOD FOR THOUGHT;

2.2 vs 2.5; I made a statement over 15 years ago and I still believe it holds to this very day. In a 3000lb or heavier car and up to 325-350WHP the torquier 2.5 has a slight advantage over the 2.2. Having said that, from 350WHP and above, the 2.2 starts making so much TQ that you don't really want any more! lol For the past 5 years, everything I've done with the Charger has been in attempt to Reduce low end TQ and move the P/B higher in RPM.

I stuck with the 2.2 with the understanding that the 8v head would eventually become the restriction and ultimately be the limiting factor in how much power we would be able to make. When this happens (8v head chokes the mtr) it will happen much sooner on the longer stroked RPM limited 2.5. At that point you can Only make more power by turning higher RPM (assuming everything else in the system is Efficient) and the 2.2 is a naturally high RPM turning mtr. So choise is yours, but these have been the criteria I have stuck to and they have not let me down :)

If you do decide to go 2.5 for this big of a build then I would highly suggest an EQ length tuned Tube header to bring the powerband into a more usable range and to allow the 2.5 to Breathe!

Efficiency; you've read all this and are wondering what difference a header will make on your build, or cam or big valve $'s head done right and wether it's worth it. Like I said earlier, there is no easier way to put it, the more efficient you build your set-up, the more power you will make on Less boost with the same turbo up to the point where your breathing the whole turbo map through the mtr at the lowest PSI possible. (by that perticular turbo) Now keep in mind, it's still dependant on the Entire system, so if for eg. you go to a big valve head and don't see a big increase in power, something else in your set-up is holding you back. Gotta go through and figure out what it is. If you follow the formula I have written here, you shouldn't have any problems like that.

Also keep in mind that the efficiency is now coming at higher RPM, so TQ and HP will move up in the power band and you will loose some down lower in the power band. I was concerned with this after making 480WHP on the stock 88 turbo roller cam. When I switched to the F4 cam the Charger almost felt "tame" going through the gears on the street tune (18psi at the time) as opposed to the tire burning smoke show that would happen on the stock cam. Didn't know what to make of it at first, but next trip to the local track and the car was trapping 3mph higher than ever before. So, the F4 cam, and the change in the power band has actually made the Charger Hook Better and have a More USABLE power band on the street as an added Bonus!

Weight will slow you down. There are a lot of areas where you can loose weight and still keep your car streetable and uncut. (Don't have to swiss cheese it) Keep this in mind whenever your pulling things apart. If you can mod them or change them up for lighter alternatives you will save yourself time and effort down the road and run faster and have less stress on everything. (axles/power train ect)

I seam weld all cars in the lower front rad cradle area that are going to be seeing a lot of track duty. The L-bodies are especially bad for coming apart in several areas, not only the lower cradle.

On the L-bodies I not only seam weld the lower cradle area, I add pieces of 1/8" steel to fill in both sides of the mount area and seam weld everything right to the frame rails. I then continue the seam welding right along the lower apron (wheel well area where engine compartment apron is spot welded to frame rail) all the way till it ends at the firewall.

Now this was as far as I would go, back in the day, but the Charger has shown me a little more.(this part was funny at the time because ppl would watch the car launch and ask me how it felt inside the car. My response; It feels like the car is pulling itself apart!) Several years ago, while working on the car I noticed daylight through my strut towers. Notice how beefy and one-piece solid formed steel the strut towers are on all other models like Daytona Spirit ect. The L-bodies look like tin in comparison and that always bothered me, but I never noticed a problem. When I took a closer look it was the entire lower strut tower that was pulling away from the rest of the car. All of the lower factory spot welds had failed and Both strut towers were pulling up and outward. Pass side was about 1/4" up and driver side was more like 1/2" if memory serves. (would a strut brace have helped?)

Anyway, I now seam weld that entire lower strut tower area as well. Since doing that on the Charger 4-5 years ago it has never been a problem.

So, that should keep you guys busy till I have time to write up the stage 4 thread! lol Continue having fun and Be Safe!

 
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#2 ·
Finally, got'er done :)

I think we should leave this open for at least a week to see if I've missed anything obvious. Check spelling ect ect.

LMK what you guys and gals think.

Next will be the "real world eg" which will be The Charger. Hopefully I'll get that done over the next week.
 
#3 ·
this is an important milestone for our cars, great work Shadow!

looks like i had no reason at all to make that tubular header and someone else could probably put it to much better use than my 21 psi daily driver lol

are there any parts that you had to make custom which are key that would be nice to have inexpensive versions of to help people attempting stage 3?

sounds like a custom big plenum intake with a huge fuel rail and air flow that easily beats the 2 piece, for less than $200, would be a big deal
If you could make a big plenum intake alone for 200.00 or less you would prob never keep up with orders. lol

There are a # of custom pieces like the brkts that make my whole brake system work. I'll havr to look things over and make a list.
 
#4 ·
I also think that your different sections are there own thread pretty much. This build thread is great to look at the whole picture. Should make URLs to the different threads discussing the different mods, like your recient clutch thread. As you get a chance to write them the URL can be adding in this thread, over time piece the whole car together lol.
I think this is a great idea, hopefully I can find the time to "fill in the gaps" over this next year. lol

I also think, as many may never get here, is adding a few photos in the different sections might work well. Along with the video it can be very motivating.
Nother good one.

I also liked the second fuel tank. Setting up the fuel rail to use the front tank at the track and the rear on the way home is a great idea, a few valves and you have it. For a car that is street and strip, that way your not trying to fill a 14 gallon tank with race gas lol.
This helped me in so many ways! Originally placed up front to remove weight from the rear and move it up front, there's something to be said about being able to carry 3 gal of race fuel anywhere you go and simply change over in less than 30sec and away we go!

On the intercooler, another good whole thread, needs to be talked about and linked too. I would add CFM needed. I would think at least a 1000 CFM intercooler would be needed at this level? Clearly the bigger the better is best all the time, but a break down of how much and when would be nice.
This is a tough one as a really good quality 800CFM IC is prob as good or better than most cheaper 1200CFM units. I could go by size, but that all depends on how much ppl are willing to chop up the front of their cars to fit it.

Bottom line, use the Biggest one (core) that you can fit and understand that a short pass core 1200CFM will Not cool anywhere near as good as a long pass larger core unit.

I also think you should make a statement in the beginning that your talking 8 valve engine too. Many that read half way in and get lost may assume you are talking about a Neon head or T3, etc. Not the little 8v. That and I've added SRT 4 builds to the stage 1 thread. So as stage builds get writen for the others they can be added. Yours will always stay as the 8v build threads to read. But I'd like to see a 11 second range SRT 4 thread done for stage 2 and 10s for stage 3 on the SRT as well some time. As the Mopar stage 3R isn't sold anymore the SRT 4 people are going to have to do it the hard way like the rest of us lol.
K, added 2.2/2.5 8V platform :)
 
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