Turbo Dodge Forums banner

The Charger......from the beginning

11481 Views 66 Replies 22 Participants Last post by  Shadow
Every year I tell myself I'm going to start a website or blog somewhere on the net, to get ALL the info on the Charger in one place for all of those interested in exactly what was done when, and the effect it had as the build went on.

I've decided that this is as good a place as any, so over the next few months I'm going to go through all of my threads from the beginning, along with all of my pics and see if I can put together a complete log of the history of the Charger from the beginning.

I think it will be easier to do this now, seeing I didn't run the car this year, and once things are up to date, I can continue with what's to come next :)

The Charger started as a project that we built for a customer back in 98. At that time it was a complete S60 car and prob the fastest FWD in MB. Unfortunately the owner took the car when it was done, but not fully tuned and we never got the chance to really see what the car was capable of :(

Suffice to say, it was run by the owner at least once at the local track where it went 13.7 @ 110mph on 18psi boost and street tires with 18" rims. I heard the owner was upset, because the car didn't go 12's, and he had paid us to build him a 12 second car. When I heard the mph, my response was "what are you talking about, that IS a 12 second car, just look at the mph!"

Unfortunately we never had anything to do with it after it left the shop, so it was never Proven, and most at that time did Not understand mph, so it remained a 13 sec build.

Fast forward to 2004, I'm getting married and right around the time of the wedding I hear that the Charger is up for sale. I also hear that it was run, wide open around the perimeter, buried speedo until the oil light came on. The owner pulled over and there was no oil pressure on the gauge and a slight knock to the mtr. He left it running for a few seconds and the oil pressure came back, knock went away and he drove it home. Then he decided to sell it. lol

Now he had no idea I knew all about what had happened, but I kept close tabs on it as it could "fill" a purpose that I had been working on for some time. Every other person who would come to the shop, or who's Turbo Dodge I would work on would say the same thing to me. They would see/ hear about all of the cars we'd built, then say "I can hardly wait to see what You drive!"

Well, that was a problem, I didn't drive anything. Anything significant, compared to some of the cars we had already built that is. See I'd been working on my little secret weapon since around 96, a twin turbo Shelby Charger that was going to incorporate everything I had learned up to that point in time. I was thinking 5-600hp at the time with 2 .48 A/R S60 turbo's and I could upgrade from there. Problem was, that project was years away from completion. So the thought of something fairly complete that we could easily finish and put into the tens seemed like the perfect solution. It would bridge the gap of time it would take to finish the twin turbo, and at the same time, answer the Q "What do I drive"?! :cool:

So I left for my honeymoon, but before leaving, I dropped by to see the car. It was still fairly complete and the body was still in good shape. However, the E/C was a mess, wiring all over, vacuum lines all wrong, rad and battery loose, SMEC loose ect ect. I had heard that after several start and runs, the knocking had gone away, so the owner fired it up and it sounded all right, hot oil pressure and vacuum looked good. I never test drove it, didn't need to as the shell (body, suspension, SMEC wiring, AWD brakes ect) was really what I was after. Sure, it would be great if some of the powertrain survived, but I wasn't banking on it. I told the owner that If it was still here when I got back from my honeymoon, we would work out a deal. He wanted 5000.00.
See less See more
41 - 60 of 67 Posts
I may have to phone and remind him we are waiting!!!

  • Like
Reactions: 1
Wow, so wound up in other things that I haven't been paying attention lol Just been coming on to check PM's cuz that's how I do most of my communication these days.

I will try to get this rolling again. Really want to finish it up and have a somewhat complete history of the timeline and events that lead to where things are now before taking the next step ;)
  • Like
Reactions: 3
Your story is part of what inspired me to take on the Doza's old garnet drag car project. It was literally right next to their scrap dumpster when I got to the yard.

Excited to see where the story goes.

-Mark Lucas
Im looking forward to the full story here too- i get a kick hearing about all the stuff that people did back in the early days.

I hope to have my own story involving a Charger start soon.

" Nate got it all put back together and running in a gravel parking lot and set out on the 2 hour drive home. The tires were bald and barely held air, sort of had brakes, only one wiper blade and rain was forecast for that evening, but he wasnt phased- the setting sun illuminated his smile on the way home.."

Something kinda like that.
  • Like
Reactions: 1
I'm glad that there is still an audience out there for this, as it's something I've wanted to do since I have no web site and no where else that this is all condensed into one place.

Unfortunately for me, this takes a certain "frame of mind" in order to get it right. I have to take myself back in time and literally relive the moments or I don't think it works for me. (can't just type the words)

So I'm on it, but it could be a little while before I find a Sat. morning where I have some hrs to spend getting back the scent ;)

Once I'm back on it, it should start to flow again. Hopefully right till the end. :nerd2:
  • Like
Reactions: 1
Some pics of the twin turbo header, I/C in it's current state and when I have a chance I will bolt the header to my mock-up mtr and post some pics of how the turbo's were going to mount up.

So the twin turbo was a work in progress and right around that same time I had a customer show up with the first Iroc R/T Daytona that I had seen in person. I think the initial visit was to see what performance we could get out of the 16v pkg, but it quickly moved to "I'm tired of all the issues with this car and always having to take it back to the dealer for things that never seem to get fixed right, Interested in a swap"?

Now he knew from speaking with me, that I had all the important pieces for a complete S60 build. He had a car with sig. value that he was ready to give back to the dealer. I thought about it, but If I was going to let go of all my stored up S60 parts, just having a Ride to show for it wasn't going to work for me at the time. I was going to need to get paid cash, and the bigger motivation was getting to see everything work, Sooner than I could afford to do it myself.

As stated earlier, this didn't really pan out for us as the Charger left the shop and we never got to really see or learn anything from it, other than hearing what it had run at the local track and other built cars that it had beat.

So that left a big hole in the whole program and now all of my S60 parts were gone, along with the Experience that I was hoping we would get from data logging a 300hp build. So we moved on.

The "Go To" build at the shop became the 88/89 TII cars, as I was ordering S60 SMEC's along with 3 bar maps, +40 inj's and S60 fuels pumps from Chrysler by the dozens. We would relocate the I/C up front with CAI, slap on the inj's and electronics and the customer would leave with an instant 13 sec ride!

Everything was moving along, but the twin turbo was slowly getting pushed to the sidelines, as I had to work to pay the bills, and I was no "business man" back then. Doing this stuff was a Passion for me, and My Bro and I would often do wknd conversions for not much more than the cost of parts, just to get the experience and chance to see if we could pull it off. lol

Non turbo 2.5 auto shadow shows up on a Saturday and leaves on the Sunday (usually 11:00 at night) completely converted to 2.2 TII I/C'd 555 with no codes and running Perfectly. Man, those round the clock builds were Exhilarating, but they usually ended with a happy customer driving away and owing me the $'s that I desperately needed to keep things afloat. :(

Fortunately we Were getting the Word out there, and it wasn't too long before the next opportunity to really Learn something came along. Remember, at this time we had never taken a car, Any car, down the 1/4 mile. We had been to the drag strip, but never run a car there.

There was a Great guy named Mark who I knew from the Chrysler dealership I got my parts from. He is the one who got me the great deal there in the first place. Turns out he had a neighbor with a 1991 2.5 5 spd Daytona that was having some trouble finding competent mechanics to work on it. He wanted to modify it, but was reluctant because it seemed that even the dealership couldn't solve some of the minor running issues he was having.

Mark asked me if I could help and before long we were introduced, his name was Luigi.


See less See more
I still remember Luigi's first visit to the shop, well, actually more like a garage back then. (and from the outside look, still Now lol)

He pulls up in this Immaculate Electric Blue (I believe that was the name of that blue) Daytona and the look on his face was priceless. Like so many others that were referred to the shop from a dealership in Winnipeg, Where the hell am I, and what's this guy going to do for me that the dealership can't! (backyard mechanic vs "Professional" :wink2:)

So we have a good chat and I show him around and he starts to warm up some, seeing all of the parts we have, although I don't think I had any 91's back then as far as parts cars. My focus had been buying all of the I/C'd cars coming through the auction, so this "High Torque" 91 was New for me. It was a Shock to lift the hood and find a 568 mated to that 2.5.

I knew as soon as I saw his Ride, this is one Anal owner (in the Best way) His car was Show condition, absolutely Mint Everywhere! Someone who Really knew how to take care of a car!

So our first visit ends as he's telling me what he would like out of his Daytona, but there is a big "IF" he decides we are to be the ones to work on it.

Couple weeks fly by, we have another customer, who became a very good friend of mine with a S60 converted (but stock Garrett turbo 88 Shelby Daytona) who was debating going further, bigger turbo ect. He was surprising a lot of unsuspecting 5.0's and modified Imports and was duly impressed with the performance vs investment out of his Daytona thus far.

Phone rings and it's Luigi on the other end. He's at a Chrysler dealer in Brandon and they want to change his TB and charge him something like 600+ $'s to fix a vacuum/ boost leak that has just occurred.

I ask him what happened; "Was driving under full boost and I heard a "Pop", now I can hear a whistle when boosting. Out of boost everything appears normal."

"You Popped a hose" I tell him. "Don't let them touch your TB!" lol

We end up talking for at least 20 min, he tells me that a popped hose was the first thing they looked for but they guarantee all hoses are OK. I can Feel his reluctance to think that some "back yard mechanic" could possibly diagnose a problem over the phone that a dealership hasn't been able to find after looking at it for over an hour. I tell him, do whatever you want, but If you drive down to the shop, I Guarantee I will find the ruptured hose and fix it, prop for 20-50 bucks!

So he decides it's worth the chance, + I baited him a little more by telling him I have TB's in stock and could fix it on the spot for way less then the dealer anyways, If it were the TB. (which I Knew it wasn't)

He gets to the shop and I go to and do what, back then, ended up turning into a little game I had going. Find the problem in 20 or less!

I use to get calls, some from FWD TD owner (or even the shop that was working on them) cars that had been to 2-5 different shops and None could solve the issues it was having. I would make Friendly bets that I could find the problem in 5, 10, or even 20 mins once the car got to the shop. I believe after my record went over 15 for 15 I stopped counting. This was all from adopting the "Kiss" method.

Every single time, it was something So Simple, everyone else overlooked it. The More shops that the vehicle had gone to, and the more info I was given over the phone of everything they had looked at, the simpler the solution became. (although, the owners didn't see it that way, they thought the more people who can't find the problem, the Harder it Must be to solve) So I ended up looking like the Hero, which I was prob all about back then anyway! lmao

So I start checking all the Known culprits, and to my amazement, I can't find the ruptured hose. 5-10min in and I can see he's starting to Re-believe the diagnosis of the dealership. Dang, I better Prove my worth, cuz I know in the back of my mind, this is my chance!

I get him to start the Daytona and I'm bending hoses and trying to find a vacuum leak, and finally, I lift up on the main hose that goes into the intake mani, and Bingo! The tear was on the absolute Bottom of the hose and it was the seam that let go, so ran right in line with the hose itself. Absolutely invisible, and it would close under vacuum, only opening under the pressure of boost.

That, was IT! Like I have seen So many times, All Doubt.....Gone from His mind! In that one simple fix, we became the Only shop that would work on his Daytona from that point going forward.

So we sat down and went over what performance mods were the most feasible for his goals. Now this one was different. We had been using the MP S60 SMEC's (and a few MP LM's ect) but No re-cals up to this point. (I think this was around 2000) My other customer, Todd, had called the MP Tech line and he was on the net, so he got in touch with several Individuals in the US that were the "Gurus" of these cars, asking a bunch of Q's and telling them about me.

The Tech line gave him the same line they gave me, " The S60 is a Complete pkg, you Can't use any individual pieces, have to use the Entire pkg".

I remember when Todd told me that, just before we put the 3 bar, S60 SMEC and +40 inj's into his TII Daytona. lol I told him, "if it's a little rich, we'll put in an AFPR and dial down the fuel," but we never ended up having to......go figure.

I also remember Todd calling me one day to tell me he had been talking to some guy in New York or there's about who said I didn't exist! :surprise: "Everyone who's Anyone in the TD world has already been identified, No one is going to come out of left field, Knowing something none of "US" doesn't already know, or doing something that hasn't been done!" IF I was for Real, they would have already heard of me. :wink2:

So along with this "New build" I was about to get my first intro to FWD Performance, as up to this point, we would just convert the car to SMEC electronics in order to take advantage of the MP S60 SMEC's I had, but to H#!! if I was going to do that to this MINT 91 Shelby Daytona!
See less See more
Should clarify a few things;

While I was not yet on the internet, I was dropping by my bro's place and using their I/N to access info from Gus, Gary, Mike and Cliff, and later heard about Stephane ect. So it's not like I was in the dark and coming up with everything myself. Like Einstein said "I stand on the shoulders of Giants" and that's pretty much what it felt like to me. I was being given Good info, but then deducing slightly Different observations/ theories from it.

On the other hand, I was also "sheltered" from what I would come to call all of the "Miss information" on the net and forums that still exists today. Would it have made any difference? Prob not, as I don't buy into it now and never have.

I would only focus on those getting Results, and at the Top of the game, nothing else had any relevance to me.

At this same time, and unbeknownst to me at the time, there was a local site called "WinnipegHeights.com" (IMS) it was the local car scene/ Flaming grounds and things were just starting to heat up between the Hondas and TD's and other brands. (The S/C S60 we built was often in the middle of it all lol) This would later add Fuel to my Fire and Motivate me to Burn even Brighter! :grin2:

So Luigi's Daytona was going to be the "Next" S60 build, but a little different. I recognized Immediately, the extra Weight we would be moving and how this would/ could effect things.


It had a 568 trans with a stock clutch good enough for the build! (this was a huge +)

An Immaculate, perfect Runner with little to No previous "Butchery" we would have to solve first.

So complete longblock Should be usable "As Is"


It was a 91, so custom cal (I was putting myself in the hands of "Others" lol)

It was loaded and heavy, would have to take this into consideration.

The following is what we would typically do when going 20+PSI boost on a stock engine (usually a TII already) and though Luigi's Daytona, with something like 9X,000kms showing, prob needed nothing, we weren't about to let any stone by unturned, specially with our track record of 100%, Zero failures with what we did.

See the first S/C that we put an MP LM and boosted 14-15 psi on a bone stock untouched P/T lasted a couple seasons, then and all of a sudden, it developed a rod knock, right after a WOT run at full boost. When we dropped the pan and took a look, the rod bearing wasn't spun, it was "mashed". So I took that as it had too much clearance from wear and under boost we just pounded it out.

That lead to Every build utilizing the stock running engine, we would check and 99% of the time Replace the rod bearing/ polish crank and put it all back together. Followed by a 1000km "break-in" just to make sure that no grooves in the crank could pile up a bearing in short order. I took a ton of flack from ppl telling me you Can't break in bearings ect, but I have a story for a later date that Verified what we did, and that, without the specific break in, our 100% would have dropped to who knows what? 50%?

So we pulled the P/T, checked all the mounts, filled the front lower cradle mount with W/S urethane, (I never fill or run urethane side mounts, not even in the Charger @ 10.04 144mph!) S60 pump in tank, MP H/G, checked the rod bearings and this is one of only 2 mtrs, that the bearings were So mint, I left them alone. Zero ridge on the upper cyl walls. You could tell that this mtr had never seen dirty broken down oil! I believe we hadn't started to run solid bobbles at this time, so still had the factory damper in there for rear mount. 180 T-stat and I believe the MP ignition wires at the time.

I want to say we "shimmed" the front sway bar, because I did that back then per (I believe) Gus's site.

Left the 1 piece intake on there (I would usually go 2 piece, but it was discussed that at a later date we would) and I was curious how the 1 piece would do. Maybe a little more TQ to move the mass?

I called FWD and had my first "talk" with Cindy. Now I had done a little research on cals and all seemed to have their ups and downs. When I spoke with Cindy, she asked me the typical Q's, how much boost, what turbo ect ect. I Think we hit it off? When I told her I wanted her most aggressive cal and that I would control the boost myself, and that the size of the turbo ect was of no concern from my understanding, using the S60 SMEC's on stock turbo's cars and stock FPR and having no issues with rich. (maybe why the mtrs lasted? Turbo (Safe) rich?)

This introduced me to the Stage 5 cal. I don't know how many I ordered over the years, a dozen or so? More? I have only ever ordered stage 5 cals, never anything less and have had nothing but Success running them! I believe Cindy talked me into an under drive pulley as well, and an under drive pulley has gone on Every significant build that has come from the shop since!

So the cal was on the way, now the turbo. Most would just bolt on the S60 "As Is". For some reason my lizard brain told me not to. Heavy car, owner wants as little lag as possible and car to drive like stock +power. So I made the decision to go Backwards, in most ppls view, and run the .48 A/R housing. I had no pressure tap back then, and many doubted my thinking, but I assured Luigi, that IF it didn't perform properly and up to the task, I would swap the.63 A/R housing back on at no charge. (see, Chance to learn stuff again!)

The last obstacle for the mtr was the B.S.'s. Luigi had read all kinds of BS (lol) on the net about removing them and mtr is going to vibrate and shake mirrors ect ect. I assured him that was Not the case, and that the difference in vibration vs what you gain is hardly even noticeable. He was extremely reluctant on this, as the comfort and "stock like" manners Had to be there, but he had learned to Trust me by this time, and he gave us the go ahead.

We got it all together, 2 1/2" S/V which was our standard back then (I had not "Seen" the light of the Mandrel S/V yet) full 3" exhaust through Dynomax Super turbo muffler. Added Cyberdyne narrow band gauge and 30psi boost gauge to pillar pod mount.

Fired it up on the stage 5 with +40's and could only Smile. It started and ran like stock. Great idle and I completely forgot about the balance shafts. Luigi came down and took it for a real casual spin, just to see if any of the drivability had changed. So he's sitting in the Daytona after the ride and I'm standing next to his drivers door, window down. "So, what do you think?" I ask him. "I can't believe how smooth it is! I think it's actually running better than it was before you took it apart!" Then I remembered and reminded him, that there are No B.S.'s in the mtr lol Mind Blown, right there, on the spot! He had completely forgotten we had removed them and couldn't tell, even Trying.

So Luigi very quickly became one of those rare customers, who came to trust us with a Confidence that would Intimidate others that he spoke with about his car/ build. Most others would bug him about why he doesn't just build it himself, that we charge too much, that rob doesn't Know Everything! lol

On the net, and wpgheights.com, there was a real Love it/ Hate it war going on about the "Little shop" south of Wpg that is building all of these Fast TD's. A couple guys on there looked at themselves as the resident "Gurus" and were not having any "outsiders" infringing on their territory.

In the mean time, while this was going on, we had acquired a Gtec. So I was Gtec'ing the Daytona and not so happy with the results I was getting. See, Luigi just wanted his Daytona to be fast enough to impress, and more specifically, Beat his friends Camaro build the next year. Me, I was building a 13 sec street car that Should go 12's at the track. IMS, the car was showing low 14's and I would trip the occasional 13.9X on the 40 series 18" tires. (Damn, whish I had picks, cuz those Vloc rims were Beautiful!)

I don't even think we had our first DRBII back then, for analyses, but we might have. I came to the conclusion, after watching the car Slow down on multiple passes, that the stock located I/C had to go.

Now we would usually just pipe it up front, mounted in one of the openings in the front fairing, but this build was a little different, and a different owner that was willing to go the extra mile, so I called Cindy and shared the results I was getting with her. She told me about the 1100? CFM I/C they had and that it usually dropped 1/2 sec off of the stock I/C times with no other change, so I ordered one.

Slapped it up front with a funky (maybe the most elaborate CAI I have ever made for a Daytona) CAI that passed Through the SBEC module to retain cooling effect and Whamo! The Daytona was an instant 13.5-13.8 on the Gtec @ 21psi boost. (again IMS)

Rumors of this car grew, and pretty soon the debate on the "heights" was whether or not there was a 300HP FWD Daytona in the province.

Most if not All of the import crowd, and even some V-6 guys were saying (to other TD'ers) that No way No how is an 8v 4 cyl making more power, or going to go Faster than them at the track.......Just Not happening!...........
See less See more
Appreciate the "from the beginning" up date!!

I'm going to have to re read it to see if the "aft the Turbo" info is written yet.

Appreciate the "from the beginning" up date!!

I'm going to have to re read it to see if the "aft the Turbo" info is written yet.

Not in there......Yet ;)

One build away, but be assured, it was rolling through my head, as we were (in the background) putting together the pieces of what was to be Brent's build (The Bro).

So while Luigi's Daytona was being put through the motions, the 46 trim stage 1 was about to come into the picture.

Now I was unaware of what any Enforcer turbo at that time was, other then the fact that it was a larger compressor put into a bored out stock housing and I was having none of that.

I looked at the staged turbine housing they were running and concluded that it was to Slow down spool up so the wheel didn't Surge in the housing.

Add to that the cost of nearly Double back then for bringing a turbo in from the US and you can bet I was looking to build something on This side of the border.

I'm just going to throw this out there;

For those of you who's vehicles I may have built along the way and are reading this and thinking, Wait What, What about my build? I am trying to keep this as limited as possible, so only including the pieces of the puzzle that played a significant role in the eventual outcome of what became "The Charger".

And yes, I am purposefully omitting almost all of the drama that went on back then. I was not on the net and hadn't really Proven anything yet. So one of the biggest battles was customers coming into the shop with someone else's opinion on how this or that should be done. It was a constant struggle and more than once I had to plainly state; "Who's building your car, me or them? Either Trust me, that I have a clue what I'm doing, or take it somewhere else." :|
See less See more
You mentioned S60 fuel pumps, I'm curious what your opinion is of them.

I have been running mine since 1997, externally for about a year, then internally after.

Been very reliable for me, a bit hard to find fittings for it back then.

You mentioned S60 fuel pumps, I'm curious what your opinion is of them.

I have been running mine since 1997, externally for about a year, then internally after.

Been very reliable for me, a bit hard to find fittings for it back then.

Yep, fittings were a pain, and I ended up getting a tap and tapping the feed end for a regular 3/8 barb fitting back then. I found the Bosch S60 (some say Viper pump) so good that I didn't want to run anything else. In all of the years of running them, I only observed 1 failure, and it wasn't a failure at all. I cut open the pump and found pieces of the "sock" lodged in the impeller blades. Glued the thing back together and used it for a transfer pump. lol
Over the course of the next year or so, Luigi had us install Eibach springs with MP struts up front and a few other odds and ends. I had never taken a car down the 1/4 mile and while Luigi was going to drive the car, it seemed he wanted Us to Prove what it was capable of, plus I now had quite a bit of experience driving these cars and was getting quite comfortable in them.

By this time, turbocharging had been rolling through my mind for quite a few years and I was starting to "see" certain aspects of it. One thing I understood from the early days, the Turbo will always be the biggest restriction in the system. So the Turbo, and more specifically, the Turbine housing/ turbine wheel combo, restricts the exhaust output and it able to turn exhaust energy into boost on the compressor side to force more air/fuel into the mtr and thus make more power.

Everything else in the system is either going to be complimentary to this effect, or leave room for improvement, but it's the Turbocharger that's the Heart of the entire system, Not the engine itself anymore.

I remember a conversation I had with a friend of mine from Western Turbo, the local Garrett authorized turbo rebuilder local to me. Glenn was sitting at the dinning table and we were having a coffee and talking turbochargers. I believe he had brought some compressor maps out to show me, as we were trying to figure what the Biggest compressor we had the balls to put on Brent's build was going to be.

Now keep in mind, our goal was Always drivability First, 1/4 mile time second, so right from the gitgo I was wired into running the Smallest turbine housing and wheel possible to flow the proportional amount of exhaust to make the target HP.

At that time, Glenn was under the impression that you can't just take a turbo that was spect for a completely different application, bolt in onto a totally different one and expect it to function successfully.
Specially when you consider we were talking about taking turbos from diesel applications and using them on gas mtrs a fraction of the displacement. How's that sucker ever going to spool!? I believe my reply was something like this, as I tried to convince him it would work; "You build me the turbo, and I will take care of the rest. Understand, that whatever this engine's application and output capability was, in its other life, really doesn't even enter into the picture anymore. Give me a turbo that's capable of 500hp and I will build the engine to Breath that turbo."

Somehow, that message hit home. The idea that the Turbo, Not the engine is the heart of the build, then you massage the rest to compliment it. So we were finally on the same page, as there had been some contention before that conversation. I trusted Glenn to build the turbo, and he now trusted me to modify the engine and components however needed to make it Match that turbo.

That's when he started talking to me about To4e vs "B" compressor wheels. In a very short conversation, he convinced me that the B wheels were "old tech" and the E wheels were just that much more efficient, so E wheels it was. The S60 seemed like a big turbo back then, and we were taking a shot in the dark on what was going to be the next step for us. Glenn laid out the whole line (well, not the whole line, but what he readily had access to back then) the 46 trim, 50 trim and 60 trim wheels.

I looked over the maps he gave me, figuring the rough VE of the 2.2 and we agreed to start with the 46 trim. I was unaware of anyone else running this wheel back then, because turbo specs just weren't talked about like they are now. The one thing I did understand though, we had to run the compressor, native to the wheel for proper spool up and efficiency.

So Luigi's build was a significant piece of the puzzle, as I had to figure out what "hot side" to run on Brent's build with that 46 trim To4e wheel.

I had also been paying Close attention to what Gus and Garry were doing. More specifically, what they had achieved with the S60 turbos, as I've Always been able to compare builds and results based solely on turbine housing/wheel combo vs weight and mph, understanding that it will show what that housing/wheel combo it capable of IF you can run it out of steam.

How strange, that so early on, Both of those individuals ran the S60 turbo's to 28 and 30+PSI, making more power all the way, yet the misinformation of "The S60 is only efficient to 18-20psi" lasted So long!

So I observed the mph that Gus achieved on the Spirit, and what Garry was getting out of the K-car, understanding it was much lighter and taking that into consideration.

It was finally time to take Luigi's Daytona to the track. This was going to be a Major event, as I had customers who were skeptical of how well it would do. The owner of the S60 Shelby Charger we built (rumor had it) was expecting it to fail miserably with a Stock head vs his Big valve 3000+ dollar IMSA valve head. (he farmed the head out to a local NHRA record holder for SB Chevy's and spent a small fortune getting it done) My goal was plain and simple, 13's on the 18" street tires that it ran on. (in my mind mid to Low 13's as I was expecting a 12 sec car on slicks)

Now a funny thing happened the night before we headed out. See Luigi had this thing going between him and a friend of his who was building a Camaro. This had been raging on for several years and his friend had visited the shop several times and attempted to "ride me" about the build and How Fast it Should be. My only response was, "Don't worry, it will be all that and more ;)." The Camaro was done now, and they we Both going to Gimli to "settle" this little bet.

Well as it turns out, they decided to go for a cruise the night before, and while cruising, his friend couldn't wait for Gimli to find out who was Faster. So they headed out to an abandon road outside of the city where people were known to "drag race" back then. Luigi had 2 boost settings, 14lbs on the street and 91 pump (I kept thing Ultra safe back then) and I think we were up to around 23lbs on the high boost which we added octane booster for, as I hadn't experienced race gas yet. So Luigi stops to add his bottle of octane booster before they head out, so it will have time to mix. They get to the abandon road and it went like this;

Both cars, side by each, rolling in first gear and his buddy says go! Luigi messes up the 1-2 shift and the Camaro takes off. He recovers on the 2-3 and hits full boost and starts a reelin the Camaro back in! 4th gear and he's about a car length behind and his buddy lifts and the race is done........

So his friend is Happy, he won and thinks his Camaro is Faster, but he's also Impressed at how Luigi was pulling on him up top. Luigi can't understand what went wrong, I blew the 1-2, but the car just didn't seem right? Then he looks at his boost switch........Damn! That was only on low boost! He tells his buddy, but it's Not sinking in, cause that would mean something Unbelievable! lol

So his friend Thinks he's just making excuses, but is confident enough to go again.........

This time Luigi does it right. The nerves are all worked out from the first go, and now he Knows what's going to happen. They take off in first and like I told him, he gets out quick, soon as the tires start to squeal. 2nd gear and he's Gone! 2-3 shift and he Should just back off, but doesn't want to Risk a "Flyby" and some story about how the Camaro caught up, so he Stays in it and shifts to 4th. Runs out 4th and slows down and pulls over and waits for the Camaro to catch up.

His buddy is Beside himself! How is it Possible? How can your Daytona Possible be That Fast!!!!

So we head to Gimli and Luigi tells me what happened the night before and that it was all he could do to keep a straight face when his buddy caught up after the second race. He's already Sold, and his confidence in us is now skyrocketing. He tells me he wants Me to drive the car, and after it's all set up and running well down the track, he will take it for a few runs.

We get there and I'm pretty nervous. I've never done this before and Everyone's telling me how I have to do this right and that right or else I'm going to look Stupid in front of this crowd.

I'm trying to keep my head on straight and I tell them all, I Don't have to Any of that $hit! I'm going to go down the track like a Gtec run and IF I completely screw the whole thing up, I'm going to do it again till I get it right!

So I Stage the car and first run I Blow the tires away. Launched at something like 3000rpm, which worked Great on the street, but the one thing I Didn't expect, Way Worse traction on street tires at the track!!!

I air the 18's down to like 19psi and try again. There's a 50Km headwind and not the best day for racing, but I slowly manage to work out a launch. Actually, No launch! lol I find that the best take off it to pull it right from and idle and Away I go. Had some really fun races and a particular girl in the crowd, Daytona owner who had been ribbed about what a POS Daytona's were and that they could Never be fast, was completely turned around. As she watched me take down Mustang after Mustang with this 4cyl Daytona.

By the end of the day I had mustered a 13.4 @ 104mph and handed it over to Luigi. I think his buddy had Just cracked the 14's and was not a very happy camper. Luigi rattled off a 14.6 and was happy just to go faster than his buddies fastest time slip. lol

We went back in 03 with some worn out Gforce D/R's and it was only when the tech guy asked me to Please do at least a light burnout to remove the small rocks that were sticking to the tires and depositing themselves on the launch area that I started to get some decent 60's. (decent being 2.0-2.1 back then)

Also turned the boost up to 25psi where the Daytona was trapping 105mph. Several other TD people were at the track and were curious how the S60 with .48 A/R housing was making that much power and running 25psi! That I/C must be working overtime! Think it has any more in it? Hmmmm, well, let's see >:)

I dial the grainger and next pass the Daytona goes 106mph on 26psi. A little more and 107mph on 27psi. A little more and it seemed it didn't want to hold more than 27psi, so we left it at that.

In the end we had gone 13.1 @ 107.6mph in a full bodied Daytona D/R's (with Too much air in them lol)
and only cargo coil dampers in the rear springs to stiffen the back end. I beat a Lot of cars that day, including a modded WRX who actually had a faster car, but couldn't put it all together against the Daytona.

So we learnt some serious stuff with Luigi's build;

The mph and boost we were able to make efficient power with gave me the Confidence to continue running Smaller turbine housings then most would think possible. Too bad I didn't think of the pressure tap way back then :(

Who says the S60 pkg Only works if you have ALL the components lol

Launching a FWD at the track was a chore, never expected Worse traction on street tires than the street. (although I had hear people say this)

Stock mtr is Tough! Stock 568 clutch is Tough! Stock axles are Tough!

Keep the charge Cool, keep the engine running Cool, proper octane and boost is no problem!

The debating and threads went on all winter about that Daytona. The owner of the S60 S/C we had built couldn't believe we destroyed his best time with such a mild build. Even though he had a much higher mph on much less boost. (people didn't seem to understand mph back then)

There was a small crowd starting to show up to the shop on wknds, just to see what was going on, hang around and get my thoughts on what was next/ possible from this platform. They would attempt to relay the info to the local forums, usually to no avail because they didn't have the understanding to Back up what they were saying.

I Knew Luigi's Daytona was a 12 sec car, just on the MPH. Maybe need slicks to prove it, but just the same.....

So the net was Heating up and I wasn't even on there yet. (well, maybe a little bit through others)

In the mean time another individual came out of the woodwork. His name was Kelvin. He had gone to Western Turbo and met Glenn. He wanted to build a 12 sec S/C and Glenn told him he wouldn't have to go too far to do it, as 45min away was The Little shop.........
See less See more
I've read the whole thread ...

great story and story telling!

Can't wait for more !! :)
Thanks! Going to Try to get a segment in every Sat or Sun as the early morning on one of those two days seems to work for me.

Was a lot more difficult than I would have imagined to "get it going" again! I tried for several wknds, but just couldn't find a "feel" for suitable transition from were things were left off years ago. Finally just decided to just start writing and to heck with transition. lol

Seems like a Long stretch for a thread that's Supposed to be about the Charger, but I want to show as many of the elements in other builds, that helped Shape my thinking by the time the Charger came out.

Also, since the builds I have chosen did happen to go from fast to Faster to Faster yet, I figured If I added All the details I could, it might give others an idea of different build info for comparo and hopefully help answer some Q's they might have with their own builds/ goals.

We Are getting Close now. The next build, Kelvin's Shelby Charger, was essentially "the one that changed everything".

The twin turbo was going on in the background, shelved, but still "Much on my Mind". (a little Monty there lol) So I had worked out a 600hp twin turbo "ultimate build" (AFAIWC) and we just built a 12 sec capable Heavy (vs L-body) Daytona that calculated mph vs weight said 325hp. (WHP?) I wasn't really introduced to WHP just yet, so always thought in just HP back then.

The Daytona was such a Simple build in comparo, but did Exactly what I Expected it to do with what was done. So every time this would happen, (Goals meet expectations) it would Verify my thinking, and give more confidence, that the twin turbo would ultimately Work as planned!

So Kelvin wanted a 12 sec "street" driver. Well, that was going to mean an 11 sec Charger on slicks, as my Lizard brain would see it. So the plan was a Charger that could Eek out a high 11, possibly need the Right day and conditions, but something with the capability.

That meant MPH to me, MPH and Better traction than we had ever mustered before.

Fortunately for me, my counterpart, Gary D. was "testing the limits" of his .63 A/R S60 turbine housing :)

I was at my bro's on their internet, reading and studying the Highest MPH anyone was getting from the .63 A/R stock wheel'd turbine housing. Gary was running something like 30psi with the S60 and the little K was trapping something like 115mph. (IMS) He sprayed it with a 40 shot and went 118mph. Turned up the nozzle to a 60 shot and mph Didn't change, still 118mph.

So he concluded that the stock wheel'd .63 A/R turbine housing And ported exhaust mani were done at that point.

I Didn't see it that way. Remember; I saw the turbine wheel/housing combo as The restriction in the system...Always. So I looked at that outcome as Proving the .63 A/R housing and wheel combo Alone. The ported exhaust mani didn't fit in the equation as a potential "wall" at that point and with those results.

I also knew, that I could Clip the stock turbine wheel and get a little more out if I really wanted to. Now "Clipping" was a Bad word back then, actually, a lot think it still is today! lol (I will address this in more detail at a later date)

I knew the K-car was lighter than the S/C was going to be. Still, I struggled to find Any results with a .48 A/R housing in a Full bodied Daytona that matched the almost 108mph trap speed we had achieved. It Seemed to be at or near the Top of the list, and it was a heavy car. (In my mind anyways)

So weight difference aside, The goal for Kelvin's build was going to be 119mph +. See, no matter who would come to us (gotta remember the Bro in all of this, cause without him (Brent) this Doesn't happen!) to build their car, I would have and set my Own Personal goal for the build. Almost like a Challenge to myself, Make it, or admit failure!

So I believed Gary D's findings, that 118mph was the limit of the .63 A/R turbine housing with stock wheel.

Now, How were we going to Beat that MPH, in a slightly heavier car, with a 5 spd and Through the Same size restriction!????? (the .63 A/R stock wheel'd housing)
See less See more
Love story time! Keep it coming!

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
I sit and listen to 80s themed synthwave while I read. Takes me back to that day I first saw my sister's TC3 and 1980s Chrysler futurism was burned into my mind forever.:grin2:

The story or stories are so good Rob. I wish more guys were able to write like this, or even want to write like this.
That winter was Crazy on the Heights. The local car enthusiast website was just a Buzzing with chatter about the "300HP Daytona" and rumors of a 400HP build, that most Thought were just going to be the same Daytona, but upgraded.

Now one thing I should add; I want to say we were running the #4 cyl cooling mod on Luigi's Daytona. Would kind of surprise me if we weren't, but I have no memory of it being on there. It was something that I felt became mandatory at or above 350HP, so maybe it wasn't?

Anyway, I believe it was around this time that I first got "on line". This is where the Shadow Mystery is Reveled ;)

Almost every wknd, there was a gathering at the shop of customers and friends and ppl just Excited about what was going on. This had been building for a while, and when Luigi's Daytona went to the track and did what it did, that just put things over the top.

They would listen to me go on and on about my thoughts of the twin turbo, other build possibilities and prob above all, my own belief that no one is building a "Fast" FWD 4 cyl on a budget better than a TD!

So some of them would go back home and jump on the net and Try to regurgitate what they had hear, but Without the Experience to back it up. This Always lead to Trouble.

See the owner of the S60 S/C we had built years earlier was stirring up $hit on the net about the shop. Some of these individuals would Try to Defend the shop and without the ability to Know exactly what went on between us and the S60 S/C owner, they would succumb to his constant bantering.

It actually got so bad that they would come and tell me what he was saying, and not realizing these were just teenagers and would prob repeat what they were hearing, I would Correct what they were telling me. Pretty soon I was right in the middle of them misquoting what I was saying, and the whole thing just turning into a $hit fest!

So it was about time I spoke for Myself. Now, I just happen to drive a very minty 90 Shadow ES turbo at that time. It was the Exotic Red and charcoal grey 2 tone with grey interior. One of my favorite characters was "The Shadow' as he had turned from Evil to Good, and now Knew the difference, and so could sense/ see it in others around him. I believed I had this in common with him. 0:)

The owner of the S60 S/C was having a conniption fit at this point. He would call friends of his to ask them where these ppl were getting all of this info about his build and what was going on at the shop, and it would get back to me. So I would "Reply" through other ppl and it was driving him Nutty! lmao!!!!!

How Cool would it be, if I could somehow get on the net, but remain "unknown" and just keep poking the bear ;)

So I became "The Shadow". I would go toe to toe with him on an open forum and he had No clue who I was! Dang, it was Brilliant! Shadow, because what? (when He read my screen name) Because I drive a Shadow maybe? Because I like the film Maybe? Or the Real reason, because I hid in the Shadows and remained a Mystery to him (and others) when I first got on the internet.

Man I played that out to the point where I was just giving him Every Clue I could as to who I was! I mean Wake up Bud!!!! Who else could Possibly Know the things I know about what went on between us unless it was Me??!!!!!

He would get all bent out of shape as I would Verbally dismantle him on the open forums (all in fun though) then call his friends to rant about who this person could possibly be, then they would call me and fill me in on the whole thing. Wow, I really had no life back then, to Sink to such levels. >:)

Anyway, that's the story of how I got the "Shadow" screen name, and after a while it just stuck. I finally couldn't take it anymore and is was starting to weigh on my deep moral being, so I ended up PM'ing him one day while we were getting into it, after giving him every clue in the book, short of just coming out and saying who I was. Told him, "hey, it's me Bro!" lol I think he took it well, but the rivalry between us would last until the day I got the S/C Back from him........

So, I was on the net, and wpgheights was the forum I joined and wasn't interested in joining any other cuz in my mind, we really hadn't done anything yet.

I would go check out TD and see all the flame wars going on and that almost every time someone went out and didn't do as well as others Thought they should, Flame On!

So I was determined to Not become a member till the time was right. When would that be? 11's sounded pretty good to me lol

Enter Joe O'Conner and his 2.2 Power page! It was while reading his blog on trying to get into the 10's with his G-body that I came across his "wall of lost power" page. See I wasn't the first one to figure this out. He already Knew that Any stock styled S/V was Not going to flow Really well after the turbine housing and he came right out and Said it! "Wall of Lost Power" as he put it.

So I looked at his solution and he welded a 2 1/2" mandrel pipe to the stock S/V and saw sig gains over the stock style S/V he was running.

Now as fate/ luck whatever would have it, I was getting into it with Glenn, my turbo guy at this very same time. He was now digging up stuff like the original article on the VNT turbo, comp maps, you name it, and it was while discussing all of the above that he planted the seed that would change things Forever;

"Rob, you gotta understand, even though it's not practical for packaging purposes on factory vehicles, the most Efficient design for a turbo system would be a funnel drawing air IN and a straight conical funnel exhausting it OUT!" In other words, The Greater the pressure Difference, between the before and after turbine wheel/housing, the Greater the Efficiency of the turbocharger!

That, was IT! The lost wall of power vs expelled gasses spinning out of that turbine wheel without Restriction! It made Perfect sense! How Else are you going to lower the drive pressure in the exhaust mani and allow the mtr to Breath??!! So the problem Isn't the stock exhaust mani like Everyone Thinks, it's the design of the factory S/V! (and Why wouldn't it be? It was only designed for pkging and to expel 170hp worth of exhaust)

What timing this was! Right when I Needed a Holy Cow moment and there it was. I would now Use the .63 A/R turbine housing with stock wheel and PROVE that by building the Right S/V AFTER the turbine housing, the Entire System becomes more EFFICIENT!

But 2 1/2" wasn't going to cut it. My lizard brain was telling me 3" or Bust! So I stated looking around and trying to figure out how I was going to build a 3" mandrel S/V, hopefully using the stock piece in some way, because, after all, that's Also what we were All about, Using the stock pieces as far as they could possibly go, to get the most Efficiency (bang for the buck) out of the build.......
See less See more
  • Like
Reactions: 2
Appreciate the "from the beginning" up date!!

I'm going to have to re read it to see if the "aft the Turbo" info is written yet.

Finally, the "aft the Turbo" story!!!

41 - 60 of 67 Posts