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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
OK, so my friend convinced me to go to the track tonight. I origionally wasn't going to run, but I decided that I probably should just to see how the car would do after my last batch of mods. Those were: new tranny(555/520 hybrid w/OBX), aluminum flywheel, DD PP, 6-puck ceramic clutch, UD pulley, and some tuning of the fuel recently to lean it out a bit up top. I'm now pulling around 11.7 A/F with just water in my Devils Own(nobody has methonol here in Jax...they ALL ran out!).

Anyways, I run the car in pure street trim. I don't take anything out, and run street tires. The tires were at 22#'s when I ran my best time.

I have figured out that the clutch combo is NOT very friendly to launch on street tires. I'm nowhere near as proficient at launching a manual car as a lot of people(I can bang gears like no other, but launching is a whole other issue). I tired a few different things, but I could never really find that *good* compromise, plus the track kept getting oiled down by people breaking, so I kept loosing my rythm. My best time was achieved when I launched at 4000rpm, and was able to slip the clutch out just a tad. I REALLY need a 2 or 3 stage boost controller(I have one desinged, but I have to build it yet). I could seem to get out of the hole pretty well, but then boost would kick in and obliterate the tires! :bash:

Anyways, my best time tonight is a new best E.T for my car at 14.387. I only got 96.15mph out of her on that run, but I expected that with the new gearing. One good thing is that I can stay in 3rd all the way through the traps now! I don't have to shift to 4th(although the first run that I DID try that I did get 97.48mph out of it, but the ET was hampered by a REALLY crappy 60'). On the best run I was against a 5.0 Mustang on slicks. He treed the mess out of me(I really wasn't even trying to race him...I was only concerned about my time) He also got a good 60' compared to my fairly crappy 2.441. I caught him and passed him beating him! I was shocked! I think he was too, but I did get complimented by his brother in the staging lanes! :thumb: He ran a [email protected]

I am consistantly gaining 16-17 mph after the 1/8mile. I'm wondering if that is good, bad or ugly?

I'm also looking for suggestions as to how to get this friggin car out of the hole! I can launch an auto car all day(but just about ANY monkey can do that!). I don't go to the track very often, so buying slicks is kind of out for me as I don't see it as a good investment. None of my friends need them, so going in with somebody else is out too. I'm not so sure drag radials would do me much good. This clutch combo is VERY touchy. It's usually all or nothing. At 4000 or so I can get it to slip a TAD off the line, but it causes the engine to load up quickly and build boost very fast. Normally this wouldn't be an issue, but it does nothing but obliterate the tires! It's VERY frustrating to say the least. My suspension is good, and my engine mounts are also good(all poly/solid). I have to change the K-frame and a-arms yet, but that is going to happen soon. I'm fairly certain that a 2 or 3 stage boost controller would do WONDERS for getting this car to come off the line, but I don't have one yet. I'm open to any suggestions, or listening to somebody else's experiences with a similar set-up. I have a DD PP, aluminum flywheel, and a 6-puck ceramic clutch.

Anyways, there's my experience for tonight. I really would have liked to have gotten some better 60' times, but it jsut wasn't in the cards tonight. I think the car *may* have a 13 in her if I could get her out of the hole. Like I said, I'm open to listening. I won't be going back to the track her for a while, but I *MAY* go while up at SDAC. My main focus up there, however, is the road course. That just seems like a heck of a lot more fun, but we'll see I suppose!
 

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What turbo set-up are you running?

I would think that on street tire in a Shelby Z w/lsd you should be running a better 60ft. I cut a 2.31 60ft. in my HEAVY Spirit R/T on street tires without LSD and ran a 14.80. You didn't do a burn-out did you? Street tires should not be heated up before a run, they actually lose grip when there hot........the opposite of drag radials and slicks. Go around the water-box with street tire and just run it. Also, no reason to take air pressure out with street tire either, it makes the inside lift off the ground giving you less traction. Slicks love having low pressure because they are so soft and pliable that they spin-out and increase traction. My point: the properties of street tires and slicks are SOOOO different. I would leave the fronts at 30psi and take the rear up to 40-50 to give you less resistance in the back and try it again.

Finding that sweet spot is an art in a FWD car and it takes practice to find out where it is on your car. That clutch is going to make it harder to do in street tires, Good Luck!!!

BTW, I just made a 2 stage boost controller using a solenoid from the junk yard, very easy and it works great. It's in my thread.....http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f11/f40/162370-making-evil-spirit-4.html
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Engine, head, cam, manifolds, turbo, SV are all bone stock.

This was the very first time at the track with this set-up. I've never tried to race with this clutch and whatnot before. The car was a LOT easier to launch with the stock clutch, but I also burned the living mess out of it! I was using my knowledge from my pwast experiences at the track. On my '90 V6 car I would be more consistant and also get better launches with the lower pressure in the tires. I figured that would carry through to this car, but I could very well be wrong. Next time I go I'll try leaving more air in them. I do understand the mechanics of how and why the types of tires are different and how/why they work. Like I said, I was jsut going off of previous experience...maybe it's wrong for this car...I just never thought of it! LOL

I don't do burn-outs with my street tires...just clean them off(I couldn't do one right now if I wanted to...no e-brake!). However the stupid track people made the water box the size of Lake Superior last night, so there was NO way to go around. I had to spin them pretty good to clean them off...which resulted in pretty bad wheel hop just after the water box(I had no issues with it during launch). That was unexpected to be honest due to my engine mounts and suspension.

I too was hoping for a better 60'. It turns out that this run was about the same 60' that I pulled last time. I think it's more the loose nut behind the wheel. Up until this car I never really drag raced a manual car. I tired a few times with other friends' cars, but never was any good. The other thing to consider is that for whatever reason, Gainsville SUCKS!!! I don't know if they even have an idea of what track prep is! I don't think that I should be able to break the tires loose 40' out...even with the good amount of torque my car makes(291tq at the wheels). Out of ALL the times I've been at that track, I've yet to get below a 2.35 there. That includes V6/auto cars, turbo/auto cars, and turbo/manual cars. At the old 1/8 stip that was here in Jax(no gone) I was able to get LOW 2.3's all the time(never had any really decent tires to go much better). I can't remember, but I'm fairly certain I had a few 2.2's also. Anywways...I'm b*tching about the track...sorry.

I will check out your boost controller. I've designed one that's a 3-stage, but I'm unsure if I really need a 3 stage as I never had an issue in 2nd gear. I suppose maybe once I get my new engine built that hopefully will be a different story! LOL
 

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However the stupid track people made the water box the size of Lake Superior last night
LMAO!!

My last time at the track was also my first time with a FWD car. I was happy to cut a 2.3 with street tires in that boat. Boost controller issues keep me from running a good time though. I just got another tranny and a 4 puck clutch so we'll see what i'm able to do next time.

I forgot to answer your question awhile back..............I'm not a pilot, i pass out drinks:eek:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
^^nothing wrong with that either! :thumb:

I'm interested to know how your experience goes with the new clutch. I'm wondering if it'll be similar to my experience?

I'm VERY serious in that when I build my new engine, i'm going to do a good bit of research in trying to get a duel organic disc clutch made(probably by SPEC). I know it's going to be expensive, but if I can get my clutch pedal feel back to being nice and can hold the power this thing makes too...I'll be one happy camper!
 

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I know Pat is running the TU blue plate and a 4 puck ceramic disk in his car that runs 11.4's in the 1/4. I felt his pedal, feels the same(if not easier)than my stock clutch. They take a new stock TIII PP and change the fulcrum points so it grabs harder with-out really affecting necessary pedal pressure. IIRC, the blue plate has 40% more gripping pressure and the yellow plate has 60% more. I didn't want to go to the 2200lbs DD PP because its daily driven a lot.

I'll let you know how I like it.
 

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I would say that since you 60's arent very good, gaining 16-17mph on the top end isnt very good for a 96mph car.

I would keep with the lower tire pressure, but inspect your tires and see what the tread looks like after each run. If it is hazing unevenly (if its even noticable) then you would want to change pressure. Maybe try marking your tires across the treadwidth in a few places so you can see if its wearing evenly at the track.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Brent, i'm just curious what you are comparing my times to? I am just trying to get a feel if the car is making the power it should be.

Also, keep in mind that I now have a 3.50 FD as compoared to the origional 3.85. I expected a drop in the trap speed. I'm actually impressed that it was only about 3mph! I was told to expect around 5!

I'll try marking the tires too...dunno how that'll work as I always have to spin them to clean them off after going through teh water box(idiots think they need a lake for a water box!). I did notice today that it SEEMS as if they were wearing a tad more on the outer edges, indicating the pressure was too low. I wouldn't surprise me...the last 2 runs I tried 20#'s.
 

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3.50 has pretty good gaps between gears. I like it better for the track then a 3.77. Of course i dont study the gears on the pre 89 transmissions.

I know slow 3.0's consistently gain 18mph on the top end.

Your top end gain just seems really low, especially when your short times are not that good. Could be that somehow even with a bad 60', you are still nailing the 1/8th. When you squeeze everything out in the 1/8th then you dont have any easy acceleration left for the back half of the track.
 

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id say if you can improve your 60' it will help. once i got the hang of the track, ive been able to cut 2.2s all day :) and that was with a bone stock 24v on cooper all season tires
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Brent, I don't know about the 1/8 thing. My tranny is a 555/520 hybrid. I'm using the 555 gearset, but with the 520 FD. It's almost exactly like a 568/523 hybrid. You can do the same thing with the 568/543 to get a 3.77 FD(I've personally helped build one of those..it worked pretty friggin good! It was for an R/T so he didn't have to go to 4th before the finish, but the engine was going to be spinning pretty good to do it...).

I do know that I can hit 60mph in 2nd gear and I can cross the finish line in 3rd. My first run I did shift to 4th, but it seemed like a complete waste of time as I was only about 100 feet from the finish! I did net 97mph out of that run though. I wish my tach was accurate. I KNOW it's off a bit, so I honestly am only guessing where I'm shifting. I think I may want to hold 2nd a bit longer then go to third to try and make up for the gap there. I dunno..I'm going to have to play with it. I need to dyno the car again too.

BTW, maybe at your track slow 3.0's gain 18mph, but I just pulled my time slips from my '90 when it ran its best times and mph's. It only was gaining 15-16mph on the last 1/8th mile. Of course another thing to consider is that mine was an auto car. That *may* have something to do with it.

On the run where I got 97mph I gained just over 20mph. What's odd is that on the run where I got my best ET(that was in the left lane) I only gained 15.46mph. It was also my only run in the left lane. After my first run(it was in the right lane) I never shifted to 4th again the entire night. All the rest of my runs were in the right lane and ALL of them I gained around 20mph. This makes me think that the track timers aren't calibrated very well. An interesting side note is that the 5.0 Mustang that was in the right lane when I got my best ET and only gained 15.46mph...he only gained 16.86mph, but I caught and passed him like a runaway freight train! His final mph was 89.06, mine was 96.15. Somehting seems kinda fishy about that...What do 'yall think?

Another little interesting tid-bit...on one run I completely missed 3rd and went straight to 5th. Needless to say the car fell on its face, but managed to gain 16.83mph on the top end! Now how in the HELL can I only gain about 15mph on a clean pass, but gain almost 17mph on a pass where I completely blew a shift!?

Even though I know the two lanes don't seem to be very good for comparing against each other, a bit of math between ET vs. 60' indicates that if I can get around a 2.2 60' that the car *could* possibly run about a 13.7! That'd be nice!

Anyways...looking forward to some input about these weird discrepencies!
 

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Another little interesting tid-bit...on one run I completely missed 3rd and went straight to 5th. Needless to say the car fell on its face, but managed to gain 16.83mph on the top end! Now how in the HELL can I only gain about 15mph on a clean pass, but gain almost 17mph on a pass where I completely blew a shift!?


Anyways...looking forward to some input about these weird discrepencies!
It's possible that you were out of the power band when you were in the low gear and going into fifth brought you back in the range where your engine makes torque.


I also believe Drag Radials would get you directly into the 13s.

BTW, What boost were you running at?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I'm running 22#'s of boost. I think the set-up is about maxed out really.

I'd LOVe to get in the 13's with it, and I'm sure it can...I just have to fix the loose nut behind the wheel! LOL :thumb:

Now I have to learn my clutch all over again! :bang head I commited a "money shift" this morning, blew apart my DD PP(not going to get in to that on this thread, but needless to say I'm NOT happy...got her fixed, but it feels COMPLETELY different) :mad: So, once again when I head back to the track I'll be on a "first timer's" learning curve and look like a complete idiot out there. :( I HATE that, but practicing on the street is simply not safe with this car...it's too fast for that IMHO. Oh well..I'll get it one day! :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Oh, I didn't fix the broken PP. I replaced it with a stock TIII unit.

Even if I could have had it fixed I don't think I would have...or if I did, I wouldn't have trusted it after seeing what happened. I honestly have a bit of "foot in mouth" stuff to practice to a few people on here. I didn't beleive what a POS the DD PP was...NOW I do!! I even called a buddy of mine here in town that got his from a different vendor to warn him about what happened.

I'll try to get pics up after SDAC, but I'm giving the part back to the vendor when I'm there. I don't even want it as a trophy becuase I honestly think it would have failed anyways!
 

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reaper1, i really dont know if this will help you, but might as well..

my race weight is about 3100lbs with driver, 1990 daytona 2.5 turbo, prolly 250whp (dynoed, but im running more boost and emptier/bigger exhaust and it was a dynojet dyno so lets just say its all awash and 250whp)...

4 puck TU ceramic clutch
yellow extreme TU pressure plate
refurbed heavy looking steel flywheel

...so yeah you think YOURE clutch is grabby?

Anyway lately I've been practicing launching because when I went racing a couple weeks ago it was just wheelspin wheelspin wheelspin....

Seems like I can get very little wheel spin if I do the following:

1- while stopped, find out where the clutch begins to engage, and keep your foot there
2- pick an rpm to launch at
3- on launch, increase the clutch and the throttle...DUH..I guess I'd say focus more on a steady increase in clutch engagement but a modulated increase in throttle to prevent wheelspin....so its like the clutch is engaging no matter what and you only have the throttle to control things...i am no longer hesitant to just slip the clutch while I am dumping power into it...so what its a race clutch...never smells burnt afterwards...

i need more practice with this method but i think it may work with street tires...

slicks are on their way anyways though :D

HOWEVER...even though I may be getting wheelspin-free launches..I havent done this at the racetrack yet and for all I know I may simply be launching REALLY slow
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Brent, I unfortunatly did not get a chance to take any pictures of the failed pressure plate. I told the vendor about it. They said it was a rare failier and that it should not have happened. I told one of the other vendors about it and was informed that my "money shift" contributed to my failier. Either way...it failed, and I STILL beleive that it would have happened anyways. I can't explain why a dual diaphragm plate would slowly have decreased pedal effort over time beyond it fatiguing the parts to the point of failier. At any rate the TIII plate that is in there now is working GREAT! The clutch still holds the power, my pedal effort is VERY livable, and the car is muchy more drivable in traffic. I've not tried to actually launch it yet, but I'm willing to bet it'll be a heck of a lot easier! I STILL want a twin disc kevlar lined set-up as I beleive that will be the best compromise for a street car that makes gobs of torque, but wants to have nice smooth launches at the track. I will be probably talking to Tilton and Spec about this possibility in the future.

Rib256, thanks for the link. I designed a 3-stage boost control that is gear based, completely user adjustable, has hi-only, auto, low/mid-only options, hi is NEVER engaged until WOT, and the electrical default for the system is low. It utilizes a lot of Gus's ideas and techniques. I just have to build and test the thing! LOL Gotta find the time!

Acannell, thanks for the tips. Before I got the ceramic clutch, I was doing exactly what you describe to get the car out of the hole. I ended up smoking the clutch a bit, but I never had a problem with traction. I also never got better than a 2.3 60'! It felt good, but it simply wasn't fast. Maybe the tires were worse than I thought? I'm going to give it another try, but I have to get new tires first! LOL I tore the inner sidewall out of my left front on the road course at SDAC18!! It was a heck of a lot of fun though, and only one other car in my group could even hang with mine...so I must've been doing something right! LOL I was even detuned to 9#'s of boost the entire time I was there so I could run 87 gas(to save money on the trip) and so I didn't break the engine on the road course...it paid off!!!
 
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