welcome to the forum!!! sad to hear about your problems! sounds like you have a LOT of issues to deal with! i think i would try to kill off most of your list before going any farther. because any of those could be causing your problems!!! once you get those straight then we may be able to help you more. looks like to me a good once over with a piece of sand paper on the grounds and cleaning up the "extra wiring" could help out greatly!! do you know how to check the fusible links? and one other thing if the key is giving you problems i would go ahead and replace it just for safety sakes!
Turn key to start: Whole car dies
Ok, this is actually my first post on here, but I have to say, I've gotten more than my fair share of useful information to get my project started already!
A little backstory, I bought this car and the previous owner insured it me it only had a few issues and needed a head gasket. So I replaced the head gasket, timing drive, all the belts, pcv, ignition system, thermostat and restored the vacuum lines to the factory routing. The car is 1989 spirit 2.5 TI with the TII intercooler and BOV. After getting all this buttoned up, new oil, new coolant, I'm ready to start the motor with a brand-new battery.
Get in the car, which has been sitting for probably a year or two, and put the key in the ignition. Almost everything works, windows, locks, lights, etc. I turn the key to on, everything is good. Turn the key to start and EVERYTHING DIES. No lights at all, no more fuel pump sound, nothing.
Notes: Key barely stays in ignition cylinder (bad ignition switch?)
Has some non-factory wiring under the dash (might have shorted, but didn't notice smoke or sparks)
Passenger side ground straps are pretty rough
Most of the wiring looks pretty good, connector contacts all look decent.
I had forgotten to attach the idle and TPS connectors at the throttle body
Brake switch was disconnected, I connected it, but it was pretty corroded.
-Could I have shorted something in the ignition circuit to kill the whole car?
-Could all fusible links have gone at once?
-Could I have blown the ground straps and eliminated the ground from block to chassis?
-Could my new coil be to blame? (says use external resistor, but I assume that refers to the resistive wires used)
-Could this be ASD related? (is there a quick way to rule that out?)
I hope that's enough information, I need this thing running! Sorry for the long story.
A little backstory, I bought this car and the previous owner insured it me it only had a few issues and needed a head gasket. So I replaced the head gasket, timing drive, all the belts, pcv, ignition system, thermostat and restored the vacuum lines to the factory routing. The car is 1989 spirit 2.5 TI with the TII intercooler and BOV. After getting all this buttoned up, new oil, new coolant, I'm ready to start the motor with a brand-new battery.
Get in the car, which has been sitting for probably a year or two, and put the key in the ignition. Almost everything works, windows, locks, lights, etc. I turn the key to on, everything is good. Turn the key to start and EVERYTHING DIES. No lights at all, no more fuel pump sound, nothing.
Notes: Key barely stays in ignition cylinder (bad ignition switch?)
Has some non-factory wiring under the dash (might have shorted, but didn't notice smoke or sparks)
Passenger side ground straps are pretty rough
Most of the wiring looks pretty good, connector contacts all look decent.
I had forgotten to attach the idle and TPS connectors at the throttle body
Brake switch was disconnected, I connected it, but it was pretty corroded.
-Could I have shorted something in the ignition circuit to kill the whole car?
-Could all fusible links have gone at once?
-Could I have blown the ground straps and eliminated the ground from block to chassis?
-Could my new coil be to blame? (says use external resistor, but I assume that refers to the resistive wires used)
-Could this be ASD related? (is there a quick way to rule that out?)
I hope that's enough information, I need this thing running! Sorry for the long story.
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Welcome To TD!!!
"Has some non-factory wiring under the dash "
Sounds like it could possibly be an aftermarket alarm system that is armed preventing the car from cranking over.
I have a Code alarm that was installed when I bought my car in 1989 and it is a passive system meaning it arms itself and if the battery is disconnected it will arm itself as soon as the battery is reconnected.
Follow the wiring and see if the wiring ties into the Yellow wire to the ignition switch or if it leads to a module.
"Has some non-factory wiring under the dash "
Sounds like it could possibly be an aftermarket alarm system that is armed preventing the car from cranking over.
I have a Code alarm that was installed when I bought my car in 1989 and it is a passive system meaning it arms itself and if the battery is disconnected it will arm itself as soon as the battery is reconnected.
Follow the wiring and see if the wiring ties into the Yellow wire to the ignition switch or if it leads to a module.
I'll see what I find tonight. The wires in question were not attached to anything (that I could see, I'll know more once I can get at the ignition switch). I suspect they might have gone to a "kill switch" or something to that effect and may have shorted to the chassis when I flipped it to start.
Just wondering how this could possibly shut down the whole car. When I put the key in the ignition, I now get nothing. No lights, bongs or anything...
Just wondering how this could possibly shut down the whole car. When I put the key in the ignition, I now get nothing. No lights, bongs or anything...
Not everything is powered with the key in the "start" position, only in the " run" position.
The Yellow wire at the ignition switch is the power in the "start" position.
Access the ignition switch and see if power is present at the switch with the key in the "start" position.(backprobe connector)
If it is not present directly at the switch then the switch is faulty.
The Yellow wire at the ignition switch is the power in the "start" position.
Access the ignition switch and see if power is present at the switch with the key in the "start" position.(backprobe connector)
If it is not present directly at the switch then the switch is faulty.
Welcome!! Any chance you have some pics of this wiring your talking about?
I chased the same issue on more than 1 of my cars and it has always turned out to be corrosion on the battery terminals. I know you said the battery is new, but did you brush the lead terminals before you put it in? Try it...I'll see what I find tonight. The wires in question were not attached to anything (that I could see, I'll know more once I can get at the ignition switch). I suspect they might have gone to a "kill switch" or something to that effect and may have shorted to the chassis when I flipped it to start.
Just wondering how this could possibly shut down the whole car. When I put the key in the ignition, I now get nothing. No lights, bongs or anything...
I'm going to check the battery terminals and grounds again tonight. Talking to some of the guys here at work, they seem to think it's likely a ground issue.
Welcome to the forum! What Windsor are you from?
Not that it helps, but it does sound like a ground issue, it's like when you put the terminals on the battery and don't tighten them, sometimes when you get in the car everything works fine, but as soon as you draw alot of amperage (like starting the car) is shorts out and dies because it doesn't have enough contact to the terminal to draw that kind of amperage. This can happen with dirty terminals too, clean everything up shiney, a little di-electric grease helps too, tighten everything and give it a try.
Not that it helps, but it does sound like a ground issue, it's like when you put the terminals on the battery and don't tighten them, sometimes when you get in the car everything works fine, but as soon as you draw alot of amperage (like starting the car) is shorts out and dies because it doesn't have enough contact to the terminal to draw that kind of amperage. This can happen with dirty terminals too, clean everything up shiney, a little di-electric grease helps too, tighten everything and give it a try.
That would be the sunny metropolis of Windsor Ontario.
Thanks for the info, I'm going to pick up some wire and loop terminals and figure out the grounding issue.
Thanks for the info, I'm going to pick up some wire and loop terminals and figure out the grounding issue.
My vote goes towards the fusible link. The complete power loss could be explained by that. I have seen a lot of trouble with fuse links, but not with these cars so my experience is a bit limited. I have never had electrical trouble with my daytona, had it 5 years, but its the only td ive had. But yeah knightmoves is also right. Pretty much anything you have listed could be giving you problems. Start with the basics. Replace your ignition, check and/or replace fuse links, replace any bad looking ground or wires. Electrical problems are a PITA. Theyre often hard to diagnose and typically take a lot of trial and error.
Ok Update:
Wasn't getting ground on right side of engine bay chassis, but that has been fixed. Found that I was getting 0.5 volts at my interior fuse panel, so went hunting through the fusible links.
When I yanked the fusible link splice, the main power cord popped out of the rubber splice as it was corroded "almost" all the way through.
I'll post back when I get a chance to fix this and try again.
Thanks for all the suggestions!
Wasn't getting ground on right side of engine bay chassis, but that has been fixed. Found that I was getting 0.5 volts at my interior fuse panel, so went hunting through the fusible links.
When I yanked the fusible link splice, the main power cord popped out of the rubber splice as it was corroded "almost" all the way through.
I'll post back when I get a chance to fix this and try again.
Thanks for all the suggestions!
Got the splice repaired, and the electrics, seem healthy. Car cranks.
It doesn't start though!
I get one little pop from the the engine every so often if I hold it on crank.
New: Coil, Wires, Plugs, Cap and Rotor. Fuel pressure is present.
ASD appears to be functioning. Gets constant voltage at coil + while cranking.
I also replaced the complete timing drive. Could I be out a tooth? I centered the cam on the timing mark and lined up the rotor with spark plug wire #1 (so in theory, the cam and the rotor are in sequence). I set TDC in piston 1 when I did the timing using a pencil through the spark plug hole, so I may be off a bit...
Any thoughts?
It doesn't start though!
I get one little pop from the the engine every so often if I hold it on crank.
New: Coil, Wires, Plugs, Cap and Rotor. Fuel pressure is present.
ASD appears to be functioning. Gets constant voltage at coil + while cranking.
I also replaced the complete timing drive. Could I be out a tooth? I centered the cam on the timing mark and lined up the rotor with spark plug wire #1 (so in theory, the cam and the rotor are in sequence). I set TDC in piston 1 when I did the timing using a pencil through the spark plug hole, so I may be off a bit...
Any thoughts?
Very possible your cam timing is incorrect.
The slot in the cam has to be at 12 o'clock centerline of the cylinder head,the head is on an angle so it will not be 12-6.
Here is a link to setting/checking cam timing.
http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/f14/359212-cam-timing-belt-tension-84-95-a.html
The slot in the cam has to be at 12 o'clock centerline of the cylinder head,the head is on an angle so it will not be 12-6.
Here is a link to setting/checking cam timing.
http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/f14/359212-cam-timing-belt-tension-84-95-a.html
If I can get at my timing window and I align the notch to find TDC positively and then verify my cam, I must be good to go.
When I did the timing, I lined up the cam notches with the front cap parting lines with the valve cover off (was replacing the head gasket). May have moved while I put the belt on. I really don't want to pull all the belts off if I don't have to....
Back to the garage for me!
When I did the timing, I lined up the cam notches with the front cap parting lines with the valve cover off (was replacing the head gasket). May have moved while I put the belt on. I really don't want to pull all the belts off if I don't have to....
Back to the garage for me!
OK, went back out and lined up the crank at the 0 mark in the timing window. Took a look at my cam and it;s for sure out. I marked my belt to the gear and bumped back a tooth. Looks pretty good based on the engine angle. I now can't say for sure that the balance shaft is on time though.
I assume there's no way for the HEP to be off relative to the timing? My distributor is clocked about as far as it can go (CCW), so I may pick it up and reset it, so the distributor is closer to the standard position (flat side parallel to block) and then re-check piston 1's wire. But there's no way that that's screwing up the HEP and the other sensor in the dizzy right?
Still gets the same behaviour. I setup my 12v light from coil - to ground and it blinks while I crank.
I also pulled the spark plugs and noticed more fuel on 1 and 3 than 2 and 4...
Maybe I'm not getting enough fuel. I'll pull the fuel rail and see what happens tomorrow (hopefully).
Any other ideas?
I assume there's no way for the HEP to be off relative to the timing? My distributor is clocked about as far as it can go (CCW), so I may pick it up and reset it, so the distributor is closer to the standard position (flat side parallel to block) and then re-check piston 1's wire. But there's no way that that's screwing up the HEP and the other sensor in the dizzy right?
Still gets the same behaviour. I setup my 12v light from coil - to ground and it blinks while I crank.
I also pulled the spark plugs and noticed more fuel on 1 and 3 than 2 and 4...
Maybe I'm not getting enough fuel. I'll pull the fuel rail and see what happens tomorrow (hopefully).
Any other ideas?
dist timing can be out still, if it is out it will give the same syptoms as being out on the cam.
You cannot re-position the distributor, it does not have a gear, it has a slotted shaft that fits into the oil pump.
When the intermidiate shaft is properly aligned withthe crank the slot in the oil pump will be parallel to the block and the distributor housing will be parallel to the block.
If you are not correct I would suggest removing the belt, re-aligning the marks, install belt, rotate engine 2 revolutions CW by hand and recheck mark alignment and belt tension, re-adjust if necessary.
Before putting everything back together just install the crank pulley and connect vacuum lines and then start the car to be sure everything is ok.
(Be sure you have oil in the car)
When properly tensioned the belt will ride in the center of the Cam Sprocket.
When the intermidiate shaft is properly aligned withthe crank the slot in the oil pump will be parallel to the block and the distributor housing will be parallel to the block.
If you are not correct I would suggest removing the belt, re-aligning the marks, install belt, rotate engine 2 revolutions CW by hand and recheck mark alignment and belt tension, re-adjust if necessary.
Before putting everything back together just install the crank pulley and connect vacuum lines and then start the car to be sure everything is ok.
(Be sure you have oil in the car)
When properly tensioned the belt will ride in the center of the Cam Sprocket.
Ah rats. I did line up the balance shaft gear with the crank pulley, so if my cam was off and the balance shaft moved a little, it would be at most 1 or 2 teeth out on the balance shaft.
However the rotor points out from the block almost 90 degrees to the crank centerline...
However the rotor points out from the block almost 90 degrees to the crank centerline...
4
Getting everything lined up properly can sometimes be a PITA.Ah rats. I did line up the balance shaft gear with the crank pulley, so if my cam was off and the balance shaft moved a little, it would be at most 1 or 2 teeth out on the balance shaft.
However the rotor points out from the block almost 90 degrees to the crank centerline...
I was having a hard time getting the Cam exact so I bought an Adjustable Cam Sprocket so I dod not have to keep fighting it if i was a half tooth off on the Cam and ironically I got everything exact first time after install.
If the rotor is not pointing to cylinder #1 on the cap then the intermediate shaft is not properly aligned.
When the mark on the shaft and crank are aligned the rotor should be pointing to #1, if not the oil pump may not be positioned properly which sometimes happens if the pump was removed and not properly aligned when installed.
The intermediate shaft is the hardest to keep aligned because it freewheels and moves as the belt is installed/tensioned.
I always start the car before re-assembly, the car will run without all of the accessories and such and it will not be running long enough to get hot without coolant.
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
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