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Discussion Starter #1
Why not AWD ?

Ok i know this topic has been beat to death. But why doesnt it exist?

I know everyone tries to use a TRUE AWD setup.

But if the engien and trans are turned sideways... i see one axle coming out of each side of the transmission.

I call that my front and my rear driveshaft.

Now, you can probably source axle pieces and build something that will work for the front.. and for the rear use an intermediate shaft and get a driveshaft made that will fit into it and into a rear differential.. and...

WHY NOT!?

someone tell me
 

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so you want to put a FWD transmission into a rear wheel drive application? then the passenger side axle would drive the front axle and the driver side would run the rear axle. sounds great, be an inovator do it and let us all know how you did it.
 

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If you could make that work, theres no way in hell that diff, tiny pinion and bearings could take that kind of load. Hell, I sheared off the pinion gear teeth drag racing my Minivan.

Best bet would be to find a RWD trans and a transfer case of some sort, or try to make a WRX setup work?
 

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turbovanman said:
Best bet would be to find a RWD trans and a transfer case of some sort, or try to make a WRX setup work?

That makes no sense at all. It's the trans itself that has the awd stuff in it on a WRX. What good would using a RWD trans do you? I won't go into the 10 other reasons a wrx setup wont work. (unless you use the engine also)

Listen, its no harder than doing a RWD conversion, in fact it's probably easier! If you want AWD, make an adapter plate and custom mount for an evo8 trans!! Thats the best way! For the rear, run leafs and an 8 3/4 or get creative and weld in a subframe with IRS. Any other way is just silly. The engines are already facing the best way for 4cyl awd!

If you don't want to use foregn parts and you are waiting for mopr to ever release a good awd system you can adapt, just sell the car. It's never going to happen.
 

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OmniGTI said:
That makes no sense at all. It's the trans itself that has the awd stuff in it on a WRX. What good would using a RWD trans do you? I won't go into the 10 other reasons a wrx setup wont work. (unless you use the engine also)

Listen, its no harder than doing a RWD conversion, in fact it's probably easier! If you want AWD, make an adapter plate and custom mount for an evo8 trans!! Thats the best way! For the rear, run leafs and an 8 3/4 or get creative and weld in a subframe with IRS. Any other way is just silly. The engines are already facing the best way for 4cyl awd!

If you don't want to use foregn parts and you are waiting for mopr to ever release a good awd system you can adapt, just sell the car. It's never going to happen.
What are you talkin about Willis. He said RWD setup, so why not adapt a WRX type setup? Anyhow, we could argue till were blue in the face but if he's got to fabricate then pretty well anything goes.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
22dodge said:
just take an AWD mininvan and graft the parts into the inferior TD

People said have tried that and the parts are too weak.. although no one has ever produced pictures of said setup in a car.


22dodge said:
so you want to put a FWD transmission into a rear wheel drive application? then the passenger side axle would drive the front axle and the driver side would run the rear axle. sounds great, be an inovator do it and let us all know how you did it.
I certainly dont have enough time to play around with that.. just asking why no one else has tried it since people have gone far enough to do dual engines and a front end setup on the back of the car.. but no ones tried leaving the fwd trans and using an axle out each side stock.

22dodge said:
If you could make that work, theres no way in hell that diff, tiny pinion and bearings could take that kind of load. Hell, I sheared off the pinion gear teeth drag racing my Minivan.
Take what kind of load? Either way the car weighs 3,000 lbs and is making 300hp, should be effectively the same work.. the orientation of the transmission shouldnt matter if its facing front or back. same power, similar weight, and an axle out each side???


Just curious as to why it hasnt been at least tried.. seems like it could be doable if you have some $ and time to play with.
 

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Timmay2 said:
Take what kind of load? Either way the car weighs 3,000 lbs and is making 300hp, should be effectively the same work.. the orientation of the transmission shouldnt matter if its facing front or back. same power, similar weight, and an axle out each side???


Just curious as to why it hasnt been at least tried.. seems like it could be doable if you have some $ and time to play with.
Thats my quote, :D

Add another driveaxle/transfer case setup and you add more load to the existing diff. Think about it, before, you had 2 tires to spin, now you have 4 using the same puny diff and the extra load of the transfer case. Can you say OH SNAP!

Dodge did build a prototype but never released it, if we could get pictures of that, damn.

I doubt alot of us have the many $1000's of dollars to make it work, not to mention the fab work. I know it would be neat but alot of racers are still cutting great 60 fts on FWD, :thumb:
 

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I hear tell that the A670 has the capability to bolt to the AWD transfer case. If so, that would possibly be a stronger setup, at least the A670 is known to survive a bit of power. However, the A670 goes with the 6G7x rather than the K turbos.
 

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Nooo...the 604 has the ability to bolt onto the AWD transfer case.

The only difference between a 604 and an AWD 604 is the PTO unit that it is bolted to.


I'd love to remove the front axles from one of those vans and rip a RWD brakestand :D
 

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turbovanman said:
What are you talkin about Willis. He said RWD setup, so why not adapt a WRX type setup? Anyhow, we could argue till were blue in the face but if he's got to fabricate then pretty well anything goes.

The title of the thread is "why not AWD", No one said anything about RWD except you. :)

..and as for anything goes... yes, you can put an entire wrx drivetrain in, however, you cannot put a wrx trans/awd system in with a 2.2 (and expect to drive it) The positioning of the boxer engine is far forward, the 2.2 would stick out of the front rad support.
 

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I'll admit the proposed set up sounded kind of goofy. But it could work with enough time and money, then again anything can work with enough time and money. Though I saw where someone had mentioned using an evo trans. I was wondering why no one had tried that yet. Or, for that matter any other of the AWD transmissions out there there are certainly enough people out there doing AWD racing now that one of those has to be tough enough to last. Just my opinion though.

-Joe
 

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lol, no one has tried it because the people that want evos... get evos. If you want to do it, go right ahead, but it will be more expensive and less powerfull than if you had just gone out and gotten an AWD dsm and modded the engine and trans that it came with. If you hate the DSM or subie body style, it would probably be easier to take the body off of whatever TD you've got and stick it on the awd car. Less custom machining, and more opportunity to put in a cage. DSM engines are also cheaper for BIG power in the long run anyways.

Oh yeah, the diff is not designed to drive other differentials, it will break. Same HP I realize this, but they are going to be super long driveshafts, driving pieces with significanlty more inertia than a set of tires, which will put lots of loads on the output of the diff that it was not designed for.

Sorry for the negative post, but what kind of advantages other than traction (duh) are you going to gain from going with AWD?
 

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Timmay2 said:
People said have tried that and the parts are too weak.. although no one has ever produced pictures of said setup in a car.




I certainly dont have enough time to play around with that.. just asking why no one else has tried it since people have gone far enough to do dual engines and a front end setup on the back of the car.. but no ones tried leaving the fwd trans and using an axle out each side stock.



Take what kind of load? Either way the car weighs 3,000 lbs and is making 300hp, should be effectively the same work.. the orientation of the transmission shouldnt matter if its facing front or back. same power, similar weight, and an axle out each side???


Just curious as to why it hasnt been at least tried.. seems like it could be doable if you have some $ and time to play with.
some how you have me stating a Quote that I NEVER SAID about the strength.

Instead of being an internet player, why don't you actually do some of these things. Come-on don't be a diode (oneway way user) try it, let us know how it worked for you or don't bother wasting people's time trying to come up with a solution you will never use.
 

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OmniGTI said:
The title of the thread is "why not AWD", No one said anything about RWD except you. :)

..and as for anything goes... yes, you can put an entire wrx drivetrain in, however, you cannot put a wrx trans/awd system in with a 2.2 (and expect to drive it) The positioning of the boxer engine is far forward, the 2.2 would stick out of the front rad support.

Actually he did, heres his quote-


Timmay2 said:
But if the engien and trans are turned sideways... i see one axle coming out of each side of the transmission.
Hence my WRX thing. :p
 

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the only way I can see it done without major fab is to use an AWD caravan transmission and transfer assembly, awd caravan rear suspension and axles
and then a custom drive shaft from the tcast to the rear drive axles.

but then very likely you would want to upgrade the internals of the transmission and t-case.

or posibly try and fit the t-cas to a manual gearbox???
 

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ok here goes.......

Using a FWD engine and trans to make a 4 wheel drive vehicle HAS BEEN DONE.

I don't have a link, but they showed one on Extreme 4x4 a couple of years ago. It was a rock buggy and used a (gulp) HONDA engine and trans mounted longitudinally. The engine / trans were in the rear, you sat in front of it.

I can see a LOT of problems making this work in a drag race setup / street car / turbo dodge.

- DRIVESHAFT ANGLES. Your driveshaft to the front diff would have to be angled WAY down. If you tried to set the engine on an angle, you might have oiling problems. If you tried to turn the front axle on an angle, you'd have steering geometry issues.

- GEARING. When it comes out of the FWD transmission, it's supposed to go straight to the tires through the axles. Add more gearing from the new front / rear axles, and you're going to have a ROCKET....... up to about 40mph, and then you're at redline in top gear. This is why they did it in a rockcrawler - top speed wasn't a concern. They wanted the thing to crawl.

- UNDERHOOD ROOM. In a TD, you don't have a long enough engine bay to fit an engine AND transmission longitudinally. Also, the engine would have to sit above the front axle, and you'd probably have some clearance issues and have to move the engine up higher. That raises your whole center of gravity and it will handle like crap.

- DRIVESHAFT ROOM. You'd have to make a tunnel the full length of the vehicle to run a driveshaft to the new rear axle.

- AXLE ROOM. Where's the new rear diff going to go, in the gas tank?


I could go on, but I'm bored with thinking this through now.


in a nutshell - would it be cool? HECK YEAH! It would just take a LOT of extra engineering to make something like that work.
 

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Post college I'd like to try the project using an evo trans. Evo's are nice and all, but I love my car, and I'd rather keep it and dump money into it than do the smarter thing of buying a new car. The other reason I was looking at an evo trans is because they're pretty abundant at the yards around here. If you're looking for anyhting else, especially a TD it seems you're just SOL. We'll see what happens, me being out of college is still a ways off, once I get started I'll have to do a video or something to show how it's done.

-Joe
 

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Discussion Starter #19
DeckSetter said:
ok here goes.......

Using a FWD engine and trans to make a 4 wheel drive vehicle HAS BEEN DONE.

I don't have a link, but they showed one on Extreme 4x4 a couple of years ago. It was a rock buggy and used a (gulp) HONDA engine and trans mounted longitudinally. The engine / trans were in the rear, you sat in front of it.

I can see a LOT of problems making this work in a drag race setup / street car / turbo dodge.

- DRIVESHAFT ANGLES. Your driveshaft to the front diff would have to be angled WAY down. If you tried to set the engine on an angle, you might have oiling problems. If you tried to turn the front axle on an angle, you'd have steering geometry issues.

- GEARING. When it comes out of the FWD transmission, it's supposed to go straight to the tires through the axles. Add more gearing from the new front / rear axles, and you're going to have a ROCKET....... up to about 40mph, and then you're at redline in top gear. This is why they did it in a rockcrawler - top speed wasn't a concern. They wanted the thing to crawl.

- UNDERHOOD ROOM. In a TD, you don't have a long enough engine bay to fit an engine AND transmission longitudinally. Also, the engine would have to sit above the front axle, and you'd probably have some clearance issues and have to move the engine up higher. That raises your whole center of gravity and it will handle like crap.

- DRIVESHAFT ROOM. You'd have to make a tunnel the full length of the vehicle to run a driveshaft to the new rear axle.

- AXLE ROOM. Where's the new rear diff going to go, in the gas tank?


I could go on, but I'm bored with thinking this through now.


in a nutshell - would it be cool? HECK YEAH! It would just take a LOT of extra engineering to make something like that work.
Plenty of under hood room.

Plenty of room for a driveshaft, theres already a tunnel for the exhaust.

Plenty room for the diff, gas tanks can be relocated.

:cool:
 

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Discussion Starter #20
tkelly27 said:
Sorry for the negative post, but what kind of advantages other than traction (duh) are you going to gain from going with AWD?

I dont want to do it myself.. its not cost effective. Just threw out out an Idea for those that always like to build stuff.. remembered plenty of AWD minivan threads but dont remember any TD threads about just turning the engine inline vs horizontally opposed.
 
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