Look at the backside of the bearing you should be able to get a part number.
Don't bother with the harbor freight stuff you're better off using plastigage.

 

The four lower exhaust stud holes in the cylinder head go into the water jacket and are known to leak. Also these engines tend to have a lot of valve train noise as well could that possibly some of your noise?
Third thing what oil were you using, my guess is 5w30, I would recommend 10w30 on this worn engine.

 

I took a stethoscope to it to pin point the noise. It was loudest on cylinder one in the bottom end. If it was coming from the head I would have been too concerned. I looked up what rod knock and piston slap sound like respectively to figure that out what the noise was. Before it started burning oil it ran great with no concerning noises. Then it sat for a weekend and was burning oil. I did an oil change and it stopped burning oil but then the piston slap noise was there and the bubbling and smoke from the back left corner where the head mates to the block. The oil I got out of the car when I did the change was super thin. Yeah I've been using 5w30 per the owner manual. I had put seafoam in the oil to try and clean up my internals a bit but I think I let it sit in the oil for waaay to long like 6+ months and after driving it for about two weeks all the problems start popping up which was disappointing as that was the longest I've been able to actually drive this thing since I got It two and a half years ago. It's been a on going project and I had just got the trans replace. I went in for a front pump seal and the guy aamco has rebuilding my transmission found rust in my original rust in it so they had someone pull one from a LeBarron and freshen it up to put in my car. Cost me about 2500 for that.

 

My freshly sidewalk rebuilt 2.2 TBI was burning oil with 5W30, 10W30 was perfect no oil loss. My other 2.2 Tbi car has piston slap cold and 5w30 is too thin got the oil light at idle in over 100° temps.

Sounds like you're going for professional rebuild?

I do everything outside usually buy these cars for like $200 and only put a $100 into them and get years out of them.

Very easy to work on outside. Here u can see the gasket was fine but head was warped

If u want to do it outside and want no piston slap noise (doesn't bother me) get new pistons, rings, rod bearings, bottle hone 3.5", headgasket+intake gasket, head bolts, stem seals and resurface the head urself. CHECK FOR CRACKS.

Using this glass got it perfectly flat.

Hand lap the valves and change the stem seals if u want. If they hold water with no springs they should be good.

If reusing pistons clean ringlands

If honing cylinders wrap crank to keep debris off and use soapy water to clean bores. NOT BRAKE PARTS CLEANER.

Did the outside rebuild years ago car does fine even on 6hr+ rides up mountains

 

Wow, you have done a great job so far. Most people would never make it so far! Congrats on that.
Oil: 5W-30 is too thin. Oil can be diluted by gas wash during cold starts. Frequent Oil changes are a good thing to get out all the by-products of combustion such as water and carbon. Used cars are often neglected and the oil smells bad. A pretty good clue that the engine was abused. The other problem can be the EGR, which is worse on modern cars that use Gas-Direct-Injection (GDI).
Oil burning comes from two sources, 1.) oil that gets past the rings and 2.) the valve guides.
Whenever I pull a cylinder head off, I immediately take it to a machine shop for a fresh valve grind. This is money well spent. The machine shop can replace worn out parts like valve springs. If they need to replace the guides, the costr of the rebuild goes up, but it is still worth it. They will also identify cracks between the valve seats. Sometimes the cyl. head needs to be replaced, but sometimes the cracks do not go into the water jacket and can still be used.
The cylinder head should be checked for flatness and decked/sanded flat, if needed. The valves sometimes need fresh valve guides and, always, new valve stem seals to reduce the oil-burning. Some shops will gnurl the valve guides, but this can make the valve-fit even worse. The cylinder bores should be honed for new rings. You can do this.
BTW, I do not like the "bottle brush" because it does not provide a good finish, and I recommend using real honing stones. The goal is to have a cross-hatch pattern that can hold enough oil to make a seal with the rings.
Piston slap can be a real problem. This is when the piston rocks in the bore, usually at the middle of rthe stroke. For some reason, Chrysler in '88 was a bad year for this problem, but I once drove an '88 Dodge 600 all over the place and just lived with the noise. I bought it at a Car Lot really cheap because everyone else was afraid of the clatter.
The car was T-boned in an intersection and totalled ---before I could work on it! (Problem solved.)

 

The rod bearings don't look too bad to me, scratches are normal for a used engine.

Place each bearing in its rod and cap and check each one for "bearing spread",

This spread should hold each bearing in its rod and cap snugly, they shouldn't fall out.

If not, try to "pull" each bearing apart with your bare hands to introduce some bearing spread.

Once the bearings fit the rods/caps snugly, install each one in the Engine and plastigauge them.

This should be done with the old bearings, if you replce them, you can compare new to old spec.

This can be done without rings on the pistons, should be lots of youtubes etc. on plastigauging.

Then, remove each main cap, one at a time, and plastigauge each one, then reinstall each one.

I doubt your knocking noise is coming from the crank or bearings, it's probably the wrist pins.

HOW TO CHECK FOR LOOSE WRIST PINS AT HOME:

Hold a piston tightly in one hand and try to move the rod up and down by it's big end.

You won't actuallly be able feel any loseness, but you can see looseness, if any is present.

Observe the piston and pin closely, while trying to move the rod up/down, and watch the oil.

If the oil residue between the piston and wrist pin moves, the clearance is excessive.

Check this with a piston/rod fresh out of the Engine before cleaning or washing them.

It can take a few tries to get the feel for it and it's very satisfying to actually see it yourself.

In the old days one would have oversize wristpins installed as pistons were expenssive.

Today, parts are cheap, but labor is very expensive, so most replace worn pistons/pins.

Remember, each rod cap belongs on a specefic con. rod so try not to mix them up!!

Sometimes they're numbered, but I've seen 2 Engines that were numbered wrong!!

During final asembly rotate, the Engine fully after each rod is torqued to specefication.

The rotating resistance should increase incremently as each rod is torqued down.

The one I mentioned above, 3&4 caps were mixed up, it could have been very bad!

When # 3 was torqued the Engine would rotate properly, it was time to investigate .

With # 4 cap on # 3 rod it rotated as expected and the same with # 3 cap on #4

A rare situation but a reminder to rotate the Engine continually during assembly.

Some guys actually set everything together and torque everyting all at once.

If you do mix them up I can explain how to match them back together again.

I don't think you showed any pictures of the cylinders, pistons or cyl head?.

This Engine could probably live for years if you put in back together carefully.

Even with loose wrist pins, they rarely fail, but eventually all 4 clack away!!

The rods are press fit, so you need an Engine shop to R&R pistons on rods.

Thanks
Randy

So have a 1988 Dodge Omni with the 2.2 n/a it has the beginnings of piston slap and was smoking/bubbling from the back left corner where the head mates to the block. There wasn't oil in my coolant but my oil looked pretty bad. Before this started I was burning oil. So I started the tear down and got the head and intake/ exhaust manifold off and pistons out of the block. didn't see any damage on the head gasket like breakage between the holes so is the block or head maybe warped? My rod bearings for sure need to be replaced but I can't pull the block to also replace my mains even though they are probably in the same shape as the rod bearings. I've been trying to measure the rod journals and rod bearings to figure out what bearings to get but my numbers are all over the place so l'm not sure if I'm even doing it right as this is my first overhaul. The plan was to strip it to the crank replace the rod bearings and piston rings throw on a new head gasket and send it but I feel like that plan is out the window. I'm using micrometers and telescopic bore gauges from harbor freight. Should I try and continue doing this myself or take it to a shop at this point? I live in apartments and don't have much room plus don't have a hoist or engine stand to pull the block and if leave my car in stands I will get a tow notice it's already happened three times. I was trying to do this myself but at this point I'm not sure if I can as I'm also getting wrapped up in attempting to make sure everything is in spec or not. Mainly my rod journals and rod bolts. It's tempting to just throw everything back together and run it till it blows but I don't feel right doing it that way. It's super frustrating as I started this almost a month ago and my engine is still in pieces. I called a few shops in town and got quoted 2500-2800 for a rebuild. Any advice is welcome as I'm not too sure where to go from here and I don't exactly want to quit but at this point it's tempting to sell it but I'm just frustrated and would probably regret it. View attachment 291484
View attachment 291485 View attachment 291488 [/QUOTE

 

Y'all have given me hope I can actually do this. Here's some photos of the head and deck also I not sure if you can see it in the photo of the cylinder but there's still visible cross hatching on the cylinder wall from whenever this was opened last. I think I just needed to take a step back and chill for a bit to get my mind right. Been going through a rough time recently. I lost my dad in the 7th and have been trying to use this as a distraction and I got too obsessed about the specs of everything. I really appreciate y'all taking the time to help.

 

Sorry about your Dad, mine is in his 90's, living in a nursing home 3.000 miles away, can't walk and isn't happy.

When I phone him he often says he's way past his "BEST BY" date and should be under the sod.

We just have to take whatever life has to offer and make the best of it.

So, how about you give your Engine an inexpensive, but reliable, overhaul as a tribute to your Dad!!

Cylinders "look OK" so if it were me I would give them a few swipes with an inexpensive ball hone.

Once you have a look at your wrist pins and pistons, you can decide on new ones or not.

I like SEALED POWER E454K piston rings as they're Moly top and ductile second ring.

They seat quickly and give a long life, cast tend to be better with very worn cylinders.

Cast don't tend to last as long but they "grind" themselves better into a worn cylinder.

If money is no issue, take your head to a machine shop and have them do the whole job.

It can get$$$ so I like to check out my head before taking it into a shop for surfacing.

Assuming your cam, lash adjusters and rockers are OK keep them clean for reassembly..

Otherwise, I clean it up really good and check each valve and guide to determine condition.

If a guide is OK, I hand lap the valve, and if it laps OK I assemble it with a new valve seal.

I do this with them all and if all are OK I take the sparkling clean head in for surfacing.

Shops often don't like handling dirty old crusty heads and want to clean and rebuild them

If I find a couple of guides that are loose sometimes they will just do them, IF it's real clean.

These heads often have cracks between the valve seats but I don't see any in yours.

Theyre not a big issue on these but some guys/shops panic when they see them.

Best of luck!!

Thanks
Randy

 

Mostly agree, but Moly rings seat instantly, so there's no need for a traditional break in.

Agreed, cleanliness, having things hooked up properly, and cooling system bled are so important.

I'm a showoff, so once everything is back together, I like to reach in through the window and hit the key.

If everyting is proper, the Engine should fire up right away and run fine.

Lash adjusters might click for a bit while I check for leaks.

Finall ign. timing adjustment and she's ready to roll!

Thanks
Randy

 

Surprisingly the outdoor "rebuild" fired right up first try. Had only enough connected to test it before final assembly.

 

I knew you could do it, showoff !!

Thanks
Randy

 

Well I'll be working on it this weekend and I have another couple questions. One how many times can rod bolts be re used if at all or treat them as one time use. Second question to sand down the block do I have to remove the head dowl pins or can I just work around them?

 

Reused rod bolts multiple times no issues. No need to sand block just razor blade and clean. These engines use composite head gaskets not MLS. Just make sure head is flat. Sanding block in car can be dangerous if debris falls inside and distort the deck.

I recommend Apex AHG1100 or Fel-Pro V3 headgasket
DO NOT GET THE ROCKAUTO FEL-PRO WHOLESALE GASKET. All defective JUNK.
Other gaskets collapse in the corners.

These are the 2 good ones. Look bottom left. Felpro reinforces the corner of the fire ring Apex uses metal O-rings and a fat fire ring.

Here we have Fel-Pro V2 V1 at top. No corner reinforcement total waste of time.

This is junk mopar performance gasket.

Notice the corners. Every time I get one of these I just use it to protect the deck or the head surface when storing or porting a head.

If you reuse the head bolts make sure when you do the final torque 90° that you exceed 90 foot-pounds otherwise they are junk replace them.

 

How much boost were you running when you trashed the MP HG?

 

Let me guess you use MP head gaskets too, I’ve had good luck with them and they are purposely designed for either cross drilled or non cross drilled not just a random through all the holes in there just because design.
But everyone is welcome to there own opinions and free to share them. Reminds me of the time a old dodge guy convinced me that my Autolite plugs were shit and they should never be used.

 

I was just curious. I blew 1 MP gasket out the corner like the one posted years ago, but that was after about 150 passes on it plus 3 years of street driving and going 13’s lean at 35+psi add around 550WHP at the time.

In 30+ years l’ve never had issues with the MP gaskets when installed properly and engines tuned with proper octane fuel.

Any that have failed were from obvious reasons like when l went lean.

In street only application, and over that span of 30+ years, any engines l put MP gaskets in, that was the last gasket the engine got to this day. (AFAIK from remaining customers that still drive their car and frequent the shop)

Interesting to hear that others have had issues with them. Back in the day they were the go to with anyone running these engines and again, only time l heard of issues was bad installation/ bad tune etc. Which let’s face it, to this day is still the #1 issue with people who try to build these cars.

I would never advise a lift and slide H/G change unless it was an absolute emergency to get you to where you were going. That’s pretty much a guarantee redo in the near future as the #1 issue with H/G replacement is contaminated, un properly prepared surfaces.

It is nice to see new improved designs still coming out and available while so much stuff seems to be disappearing though.

 

I completely agree with the logic behind not doing a slip and slide gasket change, but circumstances do have me considering the cardinal sin lol. This isn’t a daily driver and has sat too long I really don’t need to start a project that gets drug on for months or years potentially. My kids are are 2 and 7 so free time is not a thing right now. I am working on another head still, porting is pretty much done just need to lap the new valves and maybe get them back cut, also considering the 3.3 springs, pt lifters, and maybe a tbi cam if I can find one. I have the exhaust manifold porting done and a 2 piece intake which I ported is completed too. I am looking to source a fuel rail for the 2 piece, and was looking at modding an old log fuel rail if I could find one cheap.
So basically come spring if I manage to source and collect everything to swap the top end that’s what I will do, but the biggest question is the turbo, that little mitsu turbo would be sad on a fully ported top end lol and my other option is a T3/T4 hybrid which I have for a future build. My preferred turbo is on my 93 Duster, a super 60 but yet again I would hate to take apart a running car to get the turbo.
Ahh maybe I’ll just have to spend the money on mitsu turbo lines just to get the car up and running properly. It’s highly doubtful the original lines would be salvageable if I pull the head…….. I think and talk too much

 

So a little update I finally got around to tearing down the head and discovered some stuff. After I got the springs off the valves I did the suction test to see how the valve guides are and all the big valves had a good suction and bounce to them but all the small valves had none and two of them were stuck in the guide and I had to really pull on them to get them out. I take it this is a bad sign? Possibly gonna have to replace the guides? Then when I took off the cam caps I founds scoring on cap 4+5 that looked kinda bad I'll post pictures. Also on our heads are there supposed to be cam bearings or nah cause I didn't have any just cam to head contact. First time doing this so not sure if it's right. Sorry for how the pictures loaded. Still haven't figured out how to move them around once loaded. First picture is 5 on the head. Second one is 4 on the head then the part of the cam that sits in 4. Next one is the cap for 4 and then finally the cap for 5. Hopefully that makes sense.

 

We're the stems dirty? Could be why they were binding up.

For the cam It's like most modern engines there are no cam bearings it's just machined into the head.

You can have it line bored to a OSJ cam if the scratches seem too deep but I'd run it.

Is the head warped maybe the cam was binding up and the heat caused the guides to get swollen?

 

No the valves weren't dirty on the stem but they are really dirty and have lots of carbon buildup on the back of the head of the valve. It was a super tight fit when I was pulling the small valve on 4 it felt like there was a lip that was holding on to it same with 5 but not as bad as 4 but I didn't see anything when I looked in the guide. I was surprised there wasn't carbon er dirt that was causing it to bind. Ah ok that's good to know. I'm always seeing cam bearings when I'm going through parts on RockAuto so thought I'd ask for clarification. I still need to check the head for warpage. If time permits I was gonna do that today with a ruler and feeler gauge. I already have the stuff to sand it if needed. I'll post another update when I get a chance

 

Cylinder 4 likes to run hot so maybe the head is damaged from being overheated.

 

This is from my 1992 service manual

 

Alrighty little update on the project. I finally got my head back from the machine shop after getting it skimmed and cleaned and getting a small crack between cylinders 3 and 4 repaired. I put in my order for all the stuff imma need to put this all back together but now I've reached the point where I'm trying to figure out if I should hone my cylinders or not. I know a lot of people say to hone if you are replacing rings but I'm on the fence about it after reading this post here https://www.turbododge.com/threads/cylinder-glaze-myth.245224/
I still have cross hatching visible in my cylinders. I've never honed an engine before so I'm trying to do as much research on it as possible before doing anything cause I'm not trying to damage my engine and make more work for myself. My cylinders are kinda dirty as my block has been sitting in the engine bay open since January but besides that I'm putting in cast piston rings in and am really on the fence about honing them or not. I ordered a 220 grit three stone hone but am wondering if it would be better to use a ball hone instead if I do end up touching them. What do y'all think? Any advice?

 

I ball hone everytime.

2.2 Tbi before

After hone

2.5 Turbo before hone

After Hone

Both run/ran great good power little to no oil useage.


Heard too many stories of failed high dollar rebuilds on here about rings failing to seat metal in the PAN engines blowing up I'm all set with that.

If you do hone make sure you follow the instructions on the hone mine says to use soapy water to clean the bores do not use brake parts cleaner it just displaces the oil does nothing about the metal shavings.

I use wd40 for ball oil and atf for piston installation

 

I'm not a mechanic but I think I see pitting in Chop96's engine cylinder walls. Won't that eat away at the new rings or will the new rings eat away the pitting?
Probably others on this forum have some advice.

 

I agree with dingle balling it.

Be very very careful you don't hit the rod journals with the twisted wire of the dingle ball... My kid did hers and we had to smooth out and polish a few journals.

 

I always wrap the journals with Walmart bags so there's no shavings getting in and then I put rags wrapped around the crank

 

I don't like the ball hone!
Here is a link to honing at home. The video does a fairly good job of explaining what one is trying to accomplish and what the problem with the dingle-berry hone can do --to ruin your cylinder bores. The guy is long winded, so I recommend skipping forward to about 4:45 to see what I am referring to about the honing:
Honing For The Home Engine Builder - YouTube

 

I don't like the ball hone!
Here is a link to honing at home. The video does a fairly good job of explaining what one is trying to accomplish and what the problem with the dingle-berry hone can do --to ruin your cylinder bores. The guy is long winded, so I recommend skipping forward to about 4:45 to see what I am referring to about the honing:
Honing For The Home Engine Builder - YouTube

He's talking about a rusted boat anchor motor left outside.
The stone hone mangles the bore outside a machine shop (try using one on a drill, ball hone won't ruin the bore like a stone hone when it gets clogged and jumps)

This is a engine he built I wouldn't trust uncle Tony or whatever he calls himself to build a lawn mower engine.

 

O.K., maybe that wasn't the best video clip! I've had some rebuilds go bad too. Poor Tony! Did you know that you can gasket match the oil pump to the engine? I did that to one of my 2.2 rngines.
Sometimes a build can go sideways on a guy. I had gone to the trouble of re-sizing the rods at the machine shop, but I also had the good sense to pull the motor back out when it started knocking. No sense ruining all the machine work just because something went wrong. My point about the Flex-Hone is that it will obscure the deformities or "hourglass" shape of some bores. I have also had some very successful Do-It-Yourself rebuilds thatg worked just fine. .I just don't like the look of the bore anfter honing with the dingleberry.

 

O.K., maybe that wasn't the best video clip! I've had some rebuilds go bad too. Poor Tony! Did you know that you can gasket match the oil pump to the engine? I did that to one of my 2.2 rngines.
Sometimes a build can go sideways on a guy. I had gone to the trouble of re-sizing the rods at the machine shop, but I also had the good sense to pull the motor back out when it started knocking. No sense ruining all the machine work just because something went wrong. My point about the Flex-Hone is that it will obscure the deformities or "hourglass" shape of some bores. I have also had some very successful Do-It-Yourself rebuilds thatg worked just fine. .I just don't like the look of the bore anfter honing with the dingleberry.

I only recommended the ball hone because he's doing it in the car.

The stones work great when you have a machine shop, block affixed to a machine control angle,speed,pitch.

Stones by hand with a drill can get clogged and rip up the bore when it binds/bends. Seen way too many times it goes crazy because you hold the drill a bit off, with the ball hone you can just do anything up down side to side and it doesn't damage anything.

 

Well I'm probably gonna get flak for this but I ended up hitting my cylinders with a 240grit leg hone just a couple passes each cylinder like less than 2 minutes if that. Definitely not pretty but it should get the job done. I kept the hone as straight as possible and followed uncle Tony's advice of being as machine like as possible. I used atf as the lube. I threw a old shirt over my crank to keep from hitting it and help with the atf dripping down. Now I'm just waiting for my valve stem seals to come in to be able to put my head back together but i am questioning what a head looks like with valve seats in it though I didn't take a photo of mine before I took it to the machine shop to compare and think they maybe took mine out. Not too sure though. Either way I still need to lap my valves and then I'm pretty much ready to reassemble everything. I hope I did this all right enough that it'll run. This has been definitely stressful but I'll be proud to have done my first rebuild successfully.

 

make sure u clean everything perfectly. soapy water bores, bearing caps spotless, everything lubed/torqued properly.
I heard 320 grit is better for these engines but forgot where.

Use conventional oil for break-in. don't idle it long do a bunch of 1st gear hard pulls then let it coast to seat the rings. change filter a few times and oil after 150 miles no sustained rpm.

 

Buy at AutoZone Valvoline Straight 30 Wt. Mineral Oil (zero detergents or other additives, also buy 1 16 oz bottle of Lucas Oil TB Zinc-Plus Engine Break-in Oil additive and pour it over the assembled block and head (cam, rockers/sliders), valve lathers, etc. And allow both to combine in the pan. Fire up and set timing/check for leaks etc but do not idle it a long time. Go out and do full pulls (preferably track pulls or under load pulls up hills.

Mine was 3 1/8th mile, and 134 miles total full 1/4 mile racing full pulls plus return road and warm up miles. Then switched to Valvoline High mileage 5W-20 and no additional additives. And ring seal and cyl. Pressures are perfect after 2.5 years of hard racing. Approaching 500 all/only race miles. Those rings sealed perfectly. The Initial & Final finish hone was a machine shop job though.

 

Caution though, the Valvoline 30wt mineral oil is really straight 30 machine oil, and the bottles say (Not an automotive oil), because it specifically does not have detergents and additives so no API number but is a Valvoline Break-in oil...it helps initial ring sealing, and protects the block surfaces from rust initially...used it the first 148 race miles only. Zero blue smoke, no leaks, zero oil burning.

 

Hmm so which would be a better choice for the break in period? Conventional oil if I can find some or 30 mineral oil with the zinc additive? I can get the 30 no problem but but too sure about conventional every time I look at O'Reillys I always see blends or syn. I'm tempted to re use the oil filter I have on my block as I had just put it on right before I started this rebuild like it has zero miles on it and had syn oil run through it for maybe a couple of minutes. I already have a spare filter but I feel like it's a waste to change it out. Also my valves stem seals came in yesterday so I'm putting my head back together tonight which I'm excited about. My game plan is to wake up early tomorrow and get my oil pan back on and my water pump off to clean it out and possibly change it with a good spare I have. When I was cleaning the water jackets I used a brush that basically fell apart while scrubbing and now have a bunch of red bristles caught up in the water pump. I thought it'd be ok and I could just flush them out but they aren't budging.

 

I think he's talking about a racing engine if it's a car you're driving around just use conventional but I would change the filter at least 3 times.

The biggest cause of failed rebuilds is junk getting into the oil passages. No use wasting a bunch of time and money rebuilding an engine only to have some metal particles blow past the filter.

Purolator BOSS filters are best for filtration but a few cheap ones $1 rockauto swapped out a few times helps early on. Break in means rings dig into bores=metal in oil. U don't want that in the bearings.

Once a filter gets full guess what a bypass valve does?

 

Makes sense and yeah this is just a daily driver situation definitely not racing in this maybe a couple pulls light to light but nothing crazy. Tucson is hit and miss when pulling up to a light and plenty of cops around lol but I'll change out the oil filter to a fresh one and grab a couple more. I looked it up and a couple stores near me might have conventional so I'll stop in and actually look at what my options are hopefully I can find some conventional 10w30 but we'll see. I appreciate the advice.

 

Find some hills and go up and down the hills under full load. It does not have to be full throttle, just full load pulls. Work those pistons top of cyls to bottom...idle as little as possible is all.