Just came from this thread

Crazy weird cold start issue

Okay this is sooooo weird! My 1993 Voyager 2.5 with the 5 speed has been absolutely rock solid since my clamshell headgasket swap and oil flush & change, I've been beating the living shit out of it, flooring it on the empty highways, hauling the kid to and from school... I love how everything...

www.turbododge.com

where areskcar suggested checking the coolant level. So I did. I found that it was empty in the overflow and only half full in the radiator. I know it was full in the rad and overfull in the overflow as I did the water pump last summer. I don’t see any leaks and my oil fill cap looks like this View attachment 279337
Which it did not last time I did an oil change. It is not rust. If feels spongy or chalky. But here’s where it gets interesting, after looking at the cap I expected to see a milkshake when I pulled my dip stick but it looked like this. View attachment 279338
(I know it is dark, it is almost time to change it) The oil is normal in color and at the same level as it was when I last checked.

I pulled my plugs to see if any looks weird and to stick my camera on a stick into the cylinders to see if one was cleaner than the others. Of course the camera’s battery was dead so I don’t have those pictures but here are the plugs (top or left is #1) View attachment 279340
View attachment 279339

I think it must be a slow leak but maybe I’m wrong. What do you think?

It is the original gasket and I know they are known to degrade over time.

If I do do it which gasket is the good one and do I need new head bolts?

Be certain by getting the block test kit from autozone. NAJ knows the procedure I remember u put the thing over the rad with some dye and squeeze a bulb it sniffs out combustion gasses and the dye changes color.

Also note. When I got my 05 Altima (sat for years) I had a mystery coolant loss and weak heat but never saw any leaks. Then one day was really pushing it and the heat went out. Went to change the oil and found the lower rad hose spring clamp was cracked and it only leaked under load. Also new cars have stupid plastic covers so I never would have saw the leak unless by chance. I was ready to junk the thing since a Qr25De is not a Chrysler 2.5 level of complexity for a headgasket. After swapping the clamp no more coolant loss.

 

Seems like a good candidate for a cyl. head re-torque.

I've solved a couple of minor coolant losses this way.

Thanks
Randy

Just came from this thread

Crazy weird cold start issue

Okay this is sooooo weird! My 1993 Voyager 2.5 with the 5 speed has been absolutely rock solid since my clamshell headgasket swap and oil flush & change, I've been beating the living shit out of it, flooring it on the empty highways, hauling the kid to and from school... I love how everything...

www.turbododge.com

where areskcar suggested checking the coolant level. So I did. I found that it was empty in the overflow and only half full in the radiator. I know it was full in the rad and overfull in the overflow as I did the water pump last summer. I don’t see any leaks and my oil fill cap looks like this View attachment 279337
Which it did not last time I did an oil change. It is not rust. If feels spongy or chalky. But here’s where it gets interesting, after looking at the cap I expected to see a milkshake when I pulled my dip stick but it looked like this. View attachment 279338
(I know it is dark, it is almost time to change it) The oil is normal in color and at the same level as it was when I last checked.

I pulled my plugs to see if any looks weird and to stick my camera on a stick into the cylinders to see if one was cleaner than the others. Of course the camera’s battery was dead so I don’t have those pictures but here are the plugs (top or left is #1) View attachment 279340
View attachment 279339

I think it must be a slow leak but maybe I’m wrong. What do you think?

It is the original gasket and I know they are known to degrade over time.

If I do do it which gasket is the good one and do I need new head bolts?

 

I will be getting a loaner head gasket leak tester tomorrow to confirm my suspensions.

Is there any advantage to not pulling the head and putting in a new gasket? To my knowledge it is the original gasket.

Other than the car will be down for a few days.

Any idea on the state of the oil cap. My only thought is that it has failed between a coolant and an oil passage but the leak is so small the coolant is boiling off and being drawn out the PCV leaving some deposits on the cap. And because it is boiling it didn’t make a milkshake

 

#2 spark plug is much cleaner than the others which indicates that may be the problem cylinder.

The "Block Tester" will only tell you if there are exhaust gases in the cooling system.
Compression will not be affected by a headgasket water jacket sealing issue.

The only true way to tell if the headgasket has a cooling system/cylinder leakage is by performing a "Cylinder Leak Down" test.
A Leakdown test will show you if there are any leaking headgasket issues and which cylinder(s) are affected.
Do you have access to an air compressor with a minimum of 100 PSI?

How to do a leakdown test | Mobil™ Motor Oils

Before you tear down the engine, pinpoint where problems are by using these three steps to do an engine leakdown test.

www.mobil.com

When you rent the block tester (you have to purchase the fluid) you may also want to rent a cooling system pressure tester.
Use the pressure tester to test for external leaks, leakdown of pressure, testing the rad cap and...
Connect the tester to the radiator, do not apply pressure, start the engine, pressure should build gradually, if pressure builds quickly there are exhaust gases in the cooling system.

https://www.autozone.com/loan-a-tools/loaner-blown-head-gasket-tester

https://www.autozone.com/loan-a-tools/loaner-radiator-pressure-tester/p/powerbuilt-cooling-system-pressure-testing-kit-22-piece/449951_0_0

 

Camera was charged today so before I go and get the loaner tools I thought I would look for obvious puddles. It has been siting sense Friday afternoon.

#4

#3

#2

#1

Bottom of coolant overflow

What do you think?

 

It took about 5 minutes to turn but that makes sense with the leak likely being very small.

 

which is the good brand of head gasket and should I get new head bolts?

 

It's non Turbo and if it didn't overheat the head shouldn't be cracked. I would still clean it and the block deck surface.

As far as headgaskets I like the Apex AHG1100 but the newer design Fel Pro is decent too but it is harder so make sure everything is clean. Whatever you do avoid the OLD design gaskets with unconnected fire rings and no corner reinforcement. Here a pic..

Top is New Fel Pro
Next is real old junk one
Next is old Fel Pro
Bottom is Apex

I never had luck with the mopar gaskets and they don't make em anymore.

You can see the blowout but on a TBI car might be OK up to you.

I tried the Apex gasket on a 2.5 Turbo I put together last year with 60$ pistons and the car is a daily driver gets pushed hard still holding and I just cleaned everything by hand no machine shop.

 

The gauge has never gotten above half way so I think it’s ok. (Not that the gauge is very accurate)

I am expecting to see the cracks between the valve sets that I have heard other people on the forum say are almost always there.

This is a list of what I plan to get.

• Thermostat gasket
• Head gasket
• Valve cover gasket
• Intake/exhaust gasket + EGR gasket (why not do it with it out of the car)
• Spark plugs
• Valve stem seals (I don’t want to remove the valve cover for the 4th time)
• Oil pan gasket (leaking from where I botched my etc job on the front main seal plate)
• Oil + filter and coolant change
  

Do you think I am missing anything?

 

The gauge has never gotten above half way so I think it’s ok. (Not that the gauge is very accurate)

I am expecting to see the cracks between the valve sets that I have heard other people on the forum say are almost always there.

This is a list of what I plan to get.

• Thermostat gasket
• Head gasket
• Valve cover gasket
• Intake/exhaust gasket + EGR gasket (why not do it with it out of the car)
• Spark plugs
• Valve stem seals (I don’t want to remove the valve cover for the 4th time)
• Oil pan gasket (leaking from where I botched my etc job on the front main seal plate)
• Oil + filter and coolant change

Do you think I am missing anything?

Head bolts brake parts cleaner razor blades to clean the deck and maybe white roloc disks for the head and a straight edge and Feeler gauge to check warpage

 

To remove the head all that needs to come off is the timing belt, valve cover, wires in throttle body area, head bolts, bolts to rest of exhaust, coolant, and oil correct?

Was hopping to get it disassembled tomorrow because it will be 53º. Then get it back together this weekend when the new parts arrive.

 

Just had a above freezing day and did this 88 Reliant TBI head removal. Took 2x longer because the damn downpipe bolts were rotted so had to remove the intake manifold and power steering pump to get a grinder in there. Here's the aftermath...

 

I was going to just pull the cat with the head. Mine is not that rusty anyway.

 

I hope you're Built like Stone Cold Steve Austin because leaning over the radiator and lifting up I barely got the head off with just the exhaust manifold on.

And hopefully yours doesn't look like this I can't believe I was driving this thing yesterday on the highway..

Modern cars with blown headgaskets can only run 5-7 minutes but these things keep going...

 

I think it is because new cars run higher compression or are boosted causing the gasket to fail and leave an inch or 2 hole, dumping all the coolant in minuets where these slowly fail over months and loose coolant a lot slower.

 

 

Got the head off yesterday and this is what I found.

Cylinder #4

Cylinders #3 and #2

Cylinder #1

I think that someone in the past put stop leak in causing a lot of the passages to get pluged. I’m more suprised it hadn’t overheated yet.

Cylinder #4

Cylinder #3

Cylinder #2

Cylinder #1

Head on the table

What is the flat spot with the hole in it on the right side of the intake manifold used for?

 

2 other pictures

Engine bay without head.

All the stuff that had to come off. Also took off the weird splash shield near the long cv axel (on table out of shot)

 

2 other pictures

Engine bay without head.
View attachment 279589

All the stuff that had to come off. Also took off the weird splash shield near the long cv axel (on table out of shot)
View attachment 279588

How does the head look? I started cleaning mine up and found huge cracks from the water jackets to the chambers.

Machine shop wanted too much so I used a $5 Flat piece of counter thing (it's flat) and glued some sandpaper to it.

If you have a straight edge check that your head isn't warped if it's not you can just clean everything up and put it back together. My head is junk so gonna take a ride and get this 86 2.5 Tall block. Guy said he pulled it 20 years ago it ran great (car rotted) so the head should still be good. For $60 why not.

 

All I can say is, WOW!
Glad you found the issue.
How are you going to clean the water jacket in the block?

I looked in the Chrysler Parts Catalog for your manifold question, they show the manifold with the area you are referring to, however, they do not show anything being attached there, each catalog from 86-92 shows the same area on the manifold.
It appears to be a machined surface and looks clean as if something where there.

 

The only buildup appears to be by the head gasket. I was just going to scrape it and flush out the chunks through the lower rad house. I have had the water pump, thermostat, heater core, heater diverted valve and rad cap off and have seen little to no build up.

I do have some stalactites in the rad but I am hesitant to try to clean it with something like CLR because there might be some stop leak plugging holes in the core.

My only thought with the spot on the intake is that the air box is intended to sit there to relieve stress from the TBI.

It would work as a turbo support bracket mounting point but they didn’t use this intake with a turbo.

 

The only buildup appears to be by the head gasket. I was just going to scrape it and flush out the chunks through the lower rad house. I have had the water pump, thermostat, heater core, heater diverted valve and rad cap off and have seen little to no build up.

I do have some stalactites in the rad but I am hesitant to try to clean it with something like CLR because there might be some stop leak plugging holes in the core.

My only thought with the spot on the intake is that the air box is intended to sit there to relieve stress from the TBI.

It would work as a turbo support bracket mounting point but they didn’t use this intake with a turbo.

I just checked it's a bracket that bolts on to that to support the airbox.

Rear view from that engine I gotta pick up

 

I don't think mine ever had one. I don't see any scratches or scars on the aluminum from the bolt or on the box from the other end. The hole is also not threaded.

 

Yeah it's kind of strange the 88 Reliant and that 86 tall block have it but my 89 Aries doesn't either.

 

Mines an 89 as well. Could be a cost cut in the 89 model year. Save 2¢ per car.

 

It was going to well so of corse something had to throw a wrench in my plan.

Good thing I caught it, would never have sealed and likely ruin the head

 

Was it from Rockauto? I got a bunch of junk fell pros that are bent like that all the Apex ones I got were perfect though

 

Yes. Looks like a manufacturing defect the plastic is untouched and the box was fine. Have already filed a “please send me another” return with them.

 

Check out this fel pro

Or this one

I found out when you buy a part if you buy the whole sale or closeout usually all broken junk Or just is very old

 

Got the head apart and only broke one bolt. And it’s not an important one.

Does the tube actually do anything useful? The end fell apart and it is very fradgel. The clamp used to hold on to the metal part on the manifold is probably the worst one I’ve ever seen while still working. The one bolt that I broke is one of the 3 that hold on the metal part to the manifold.

Would it be better to wrap the exhaust manifold in exhaust tape to try to keep the heat down. The original split loom crumbled in my hand so I put some new stuff on. When I went pulled the head I had to cut the melted remnants of the split loom off the harness.

That area just becomes an oven with the heat from the exhaust and valve cover and the air filter box stoping the heat from escaping quickly.

What do you suggest doing?

Ultrasonic cleaners are great
before

(it was all black before)

 

The flexible tube allows the Engine to inhale heated air during warm up.

The metal shield it attaches to gets heated by the exhaust manifold.

Once warm, the Engine inhales cooler air from the end of the airbox.

Inside the air box is a flap that directs where are air is coming from.

Also, there is a vacuum thermostat that controls the flap opening.

This system helps with driveability during inclement weather.

Thanks
Randy

 

Almost done cleaning everything. Just have valve train left to go. Then I will do a quick valve lap and into reassembly. It’s going back on how it came off with intake and exhaust manifolds installed.

A quick paint job makes everything look better. I also did the throttle body, heat collector, some bolts, brackets, fuel lines, EGR tube, EGR valve, and coolant hard line to the manifold. (It is VHT exhaust manifold paint good up to 1000 degrees or something)

The head cleaned up nice.

Why does my head have extra small coolant passages near the cylinders on the right side of the head? I have seen other pictures of heads that don’t have them. Is it a late 88 change (it is a November 88 head on a March of 89 car)

I have the usual cracks between valve seats on 2 and 4. 3 has a partial crack and 1 has none.

Exhaust on 3 has an interesting pattern.

 

That's a crossdrilled Turbo head. (TS) marking means Turbo Shrouded. Everything looks real good I'm working outside on mine so I can't get anything remotely that clean...

 

Is there any “break in procedure” for a head gasket. Or do i just put it all together and hope.

 

Sort of you should leave the radiator cap off till the fan cycles twice keep topping it off get all the air out you don't want air pocket to cause part of the head to overheat

 

Should always be re-torqued after a few heat cycles.

Thanks
Randy

 

Just finished valve lapping. All the valves seal with just gravity (no spring tension)but all 4 of my exhausts look like they have pitting only where the valve seals with the head. Why would this be?

Intake (post lapping)

Exhaust (post lapping)