I'm going to be bouncing back and forth between this thread and the Hydraulic Clutch Conversion thread:
www.turbododge.com/threads/g-body-hydraulic-clutch-conversion.1256584/#post-4528289

Removing the brake booster frees up a lot of space, which will come in handy with the hydraulic clutch conversion.

I found Tom Allard's setup at thread #68, 254 - 257 of:
www.turbododge.com/threads/rear-wheel-drive-conversion-dodge-daytona.496681/page-4

He went back to the original master and the original pedals.

I've found a nice looking Wilwood setup that doesn't look like it would be hard to adapt. The question is, do I want to go with a single master cylinder, or the dual type that their design is designed for.

www.jegs.com/i/Wilwood/950/340-11299K1/10002/-1

This guy has a nice Wilwood setup on his Mustang and does a good series of videos on brake conversions and plumbing the lines:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xX3_LmfXTU

 

An example of the random TD brainstorming I was yammering about. Glad to be here for this. I want to see what crazyness you come up with! I used to drive the 1950s and sixties Chrysler products daily. Up until the mid-sixties they all ran single port masters. I never had any issues with 50 year old lines, but the point of the dual ports is to always have emergency service braking in case of a leak. With all new stuff in a race oriented car, I wouldn't think it would be too big of a deal to use a single, but I'm not sure how a single line could interact with our style of prop valve. I suppose you could run a tee fitting just above the prop valve?

 

This is a development project, so I am not assuming any liability for any damages, or injuries that might happen if you try to copy what I did. I am trying to make it as safe as possible, but I'm also a believer in Murphy's Law.

Since I want to keep this as stock as possible, I'm going to start with the brake master cylinder from the power brake setup. These aren't the best angles, but they are all that I have with the booster.

When you remove the booster, there's all kinds of extra room.

Here's how it looks with the clutch master cylinder added.

This if Photoshopped, so that you only see the holes that will be needed. In reality, it looks like someone took a shotgun to the firewall, but I can patch it up.

I'll have to come up with linkage for the master, but don't see that as being an issue. One big mistake was not to measure the pedal height, before I took everything apart. Fortunately, I can use the brake light switch for a reference. Besides, I have two Lasers I can use, once the snow melts.

 

Since I had a bad brake booster, I decided to take it apart to see if there was anything useful inside. There wasn't, but maybe someone would like to see what they are made of.

 

I don't know anything much about G bodys but this is the magic L body plate.

Thanks
Randy

 

First off, let's get the legal stuff done. I am showing how I am doing the conversion, but I'm not recommending that others try to do the same. If you do, I am not liable for anything that happens.

When I said that there wasn't anything of value inside the brake booster, I was wrong. I was able to cut both ends of the push rod out of the old booster. Actually, I had a broken booster to use.

This part of the rod is on the engine compartment side. I cut the spring plate away, which allowed me to remove it from the booster.

Then I cut the large end off.

This is the end that is inside the vehicle. I cut off the everything but the shaft and eye.

This yields the two halves needed to make the actuating rod. The sleeve is used to keep the halves in line.

I initially thought that I could thread both ends and use a threaded sleeve to adjust the length. Then I found that the rod is hardened. Besides, I don't have a left hand die. Therefore the rod will have to be welded to the correct length, which I'll post when I'm done.

 

Here is what it looks like when the brake is not being applied. Notice that the rounded end does not sit deep inside the master. Since it came from the booster, this is how deep it is supposed to sit.

This is how it looks when the pedal is pushed down.

Here is where things get tricky. Originally, both ends of the shafts were separate, but contained inside the booster. If, for some reason, the brake pedal were to be pulled back toward the driver, the rod would still remain in position for the next pedal press.

With the booster gone, there is a slight chance that the pedal could be forced back, resulting in the ball end falling out of the master cylinder. Obviously, the brakes would than be worthless. I know it's a small chance, but I'm a believer in Murphy's Law and am not going to risk it.

I'll post more when I get something I like mocked up.

 

Looking at your pics I'd say pedal effort will be very high.

The magic L body firewall plate allowed for 2 different positions.

One using the power brake pedal and another for a manual brake pedal.

Thanks
Randy

 

Can you post some better pics of your manual setup? Disassembled would be best.

 

Sorry I don't have it any more.

I posted the only pics that I have of it.

I loaned it to another member to make a copy and it disappeared.

He said he returned it to me and he probably did but I can't find it.

I had a stroke in the meantime and am slowly getting my brain back.

I've been following your thread hoping you make firewall plates for sale!!

Thanks
Randy

 

I'm sorry to hear that you had a stroke, but hope you can come back from it. I've got a hard enough time trying to remember things that I've bought and put away. I frequently have to rip apart piles of parts, located in various places, until I stumble across them.

I can see this being a trial and error project, requiring me to buy different master cylinders to match the feel and performance that I'm looking for. My big brake setup will probably mess up the hope of my setup working for others.

As for the mounting plates, I'm having them water jetted, and will provide my AutoCAD drawings for anyone who wants them. My problem is that I won't know the results for several months, since there are still a lot of items to check off, before the car is ready to test drive.

 

Appreciate the kind words, I'm coming along, only my left hand/arm issues.

No strength/stamina at all and my hand is permanently closed up, fist like.

I dont know anything about G body's but L body's have "magic" plates.

Mounted one way the master cyl rod clips on a power brake pedal.

Mounted the other way it clips on a manual brake pedal.

Pedal effort is higher on a power pedal but well tolerable.

Pedal effort is less when a manual pedal is used.

Thanks
Randy

 

Did Rob get any copies made up at all, or at least a print dawn up?

 

I spoke to him and he doesn't think he kept any info but will double check.

Thanks
Randy

 

Tell him I said hi and ask him to please come back and write some more TD story some time.


-Mark Lucas

 

I'm sorry to ask, but what was the reason to get rid of the cable? Just exploring the possibility? Engineering is hard, so may God bless you in this task.

 

I guess that you are referring to the clutch cable, which should actually be on the Hydraulic Clutch Conversion thread. My cars are TII, and have heavy clutches in them, which sucks when you are stuck in traffic. Hydraulic clutches are much easier to push in, and get rid of the potential cable issues. I have received clutch cables that were the wrong length, even though I ordered the correct model/year.

 

The pedal feel in my Shadow convertible is a lot heavier than in my GLHS. Model year differences? Did they start using the high performance parts on the regular cars like they did with a lot of things?

 

Just an idea, but what about using an offset set linkage so the pedal and clutch don't have to be inline?

 

The thought of that blows my mind. Somehow switching back to a Z-bar setup. Wow!

Donnie(signsoflife22) added like an inch to his throwout lever to reduce effort. I am strongly considering this. I don't know if I like the way he welded a little plate on without any added support though. Sorry Donnie!😬

 

I've completed the manual brake conversion, at least until I can test it to find any issues. I made and mounted the aluminum mounting plates. The large one replaces the rubber spacer that the factory used. It includes the mounting holes for the hydraulic clutch cylinder.

These are the bolt lengths needed to mount the brake master cylinder without using the booster.

The bolts need to be threaded their entire length, because the outer and inner plates will almost touch when they are tight.

The steering/pedal bracket needs to be opened to allow the master cylinder bolts to protrude. You will want to add nuts to all of the bolts, to ensure that they can't come loose.

You will have to drill one hole on the passenger side, and cut out a section on the driver's side.

 

These are the parts that mount inside the car. The two brake rods, that were removed from the booster, need to be welded together. The rubber disk will also be used.

This length may have to be altered, if I find it's too long. It would be nice if there was a way to make the rod adjustable, but there isn't enough room to allow for it.

This is how the parts will go together.

The rubber disc will keep the rod from falling out of the master cylinder, it the pedal is ever pulled too far rearward.

The disc retaining plate needs to be centered so that the rod doesn't distort it. When it's centered, lock the two bolts down. Then the plate needs to be drilled and pinned to the spacer plate.

Then you can remove the bolts and install the cover plate. That will keep the rubber disc from pulling out of the bore.

I won't be able to test this for at least a few months, but can give someone the drawings, if they want to get the plates waterjetted. Again, I am not standing behind this conversion being totally safe. I've done my best to make it safe, but do not assume liability for any damage, or injuries that you may encounter. If you want the drawings, send me a PM with your email.

I have less than $100 into the brake conversion parts, since I used parts from my original booster.

 

Excellent!

 

I have started to plumb the brake lines and ran into a few issues that I want to get out there. Since the brake master cylinder is close to the clutch master, there isn't enough room to run brake lines straight out of the ports.

I decided to use banjo fittings, and bought two of the same threads, but the Earl's threads will not fit into the master's threads, even though they are supposed to be the same.

The Russell fittings fit fine.

The brake master has the center cone shaped to fit against flared brake lines, like how the Russell fittings, on the left, are shaped. The Earl's fittings are flat, but that doesn't matter, since banjo fittings seal against the flat washers, not the cone.

These are the banjo adapters for the -3 lines. They come long and short.

The threaded fittings are too long, and the male adapter won't seal against the washers. You will need to grind down the threaded end so that the adapter is crushed tight.

The original length is 28mm.

I ground it down to 1" = 25.4mm.

Don't worry about the flat face, that goes into the master. The sealing will be done by the washers, as long as the end doesn't contact the cone.

To get the length right, I assembled everything, but left one washer off. When the adapter starts to get crushed, you have the correct length, for when both washers are used, like on the clutch master.

 

Your braided lines look great, its nice you did not have to weld fittings to the master cylinder. I assume your braided lines will terminate at the proportioning valve, do you have plans of running a prop valve?

 

Yes, I'm running a Wilwood adjustable prop valve, which is mounted on the console, between the seats. That will allow me to tweak it while driving.

I don't have a pic, and it will be a few weeks until I can start working on the Daytona, but I'll post one then.

 

I swapped the Daytona's brake and clutch parts over to my Laser, because it's closer to being runable, so the pics will now show the Laser, which is Viper blue.

One of the issues that was discussed, was where to locate the manual brake linkage, on the brake pedal. I had put it at the original power brake location, but I've since learned that it needs to be 1/2 the distance between the pedal's pivot point and the power brake's location. This will require modifications to my design.

I had to position the master cylinder almost 2" above the original location, because the new pedal linkage will be higher. My new worry is that, although the pedal resistance will be less, the stroke will be shorter, reducing the fluid volume being pushed to the calipers. This may require a different master cylinder.